...

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Yes indeed, another hint. Good one Ketamine Sun!
But, all these names are there just because he likes those names?
Referring to persons, in music, and the written word.
It could be, I guess.

red her·ring
noun
plural noun: red herrings

1. 1.
   a dried smoked herring, which is turned red by the smoke.
2. 2.
   something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.
   "the book is fast-paced, exciting, and full of red herrings"

 

[Watership]

As far as I've read, I suspect this short novel (or "nivola", as Unamuno called them), reflects the reality of the true feelings, thoughts, theories and doubts of the author. Maybe this fiction is more about the mind and soul of Morrissey, his desires, frustrations, the reality of his own life and the life of others, colliding with social and moral values of the time this fiction takes place. Autobiography, on the other hand, is more about facts, dates, people, dialogues, interactions, etc. At this point I realize his two books are complementary and together they can help us to know and understand better the author and his lyrics. Better late than never.

Yes, absolutely, this is what I think, too. Maybe we don't need to dig so deep to understand the meaning of it all. It reveals a lot of the inner thoughts and feelings of the author. And the battle against "what is permitted to be true" is a battle against all injustice that has happened in the eyes of M.

 

[Watership]

i'd say the first page introduces the "death-in-life" theme: "excavate" / "look at them now in their manful splendor and wonder how it is that they could possibly part this earth in dirt, as creased corpses, falling back as the skeletons that we already are, yet hidden behind musculature that will fall in time at life's finishing line"

The passing of time and death is a very important topic in list of the lost. I think this becomes also very clear on page 2-3: "The years pass as quickly as the sentence that describes their speed, yet you cannot believe it until you very suddenly look behind you and see a space once relied upon as being the future." I really love this sentence ...

 

[Anonymous]

hi all,

i am going to read list of the lost again. now that i've spent so much time here on this board, not just gratefully improving my english skills (mainly in one register) but also learning so many new things about morrissey, i think i can give it a second go, wiser this time, more patient and emotionally ripened.

i know there are other users too who currently read or are planning to read the novel, so i hope there will be some exchange of ideas of how to approach and understand the text. the first time, i have to admit it, i was often at a loss. it took a long time looking up all the unknown vocabulary in a dictionary, and then returning to the text trying to develop and maintain an overall picture of the plot. but i feel, despite all the obstacles, there is a lot to discover, most likely a reluctant goldmine of insights and wisdom.

my plan is to read a few pages only, bit by bit, and then think about them. yesterday i read page 1-4 (to "what did you think before you were aware?") and i stopped immediately to meditate on their meaning. i'm happy to announce that i have developed a new approach for me, still rudimentary, probably not making much sense in the longer term, but we'll see and i'm ready to share it.

well, if nobody else wants to join in, i might just turn this thread into a secret diary blog later.

cheers

Shut up, you pretentious c***.

 

[countthree]

The passing of time and death is a very important topic in list of the lost. I think this becomes also very clear on page 2-3: "The years pass as quickly as the sentence that describes their speed, yet you cannot believe it until you very suddenly look behind you and see a space once relied upon as being the future." I really love this sentence ...

Yes, there are a lot of references to the passing of time. I like this one, extracted from the old man's monologue: "Do you think I was always seventy-five years old? Bless me, no. Being this old is new to me. This is why I can’t take to young people. They think the elderly have been elderly for years and years, but we haven’t, we’ve just turned old from being young – and all we know about is being young! You’d laugh if I said I was no different to you – but it’s true. My mind is twenty-one. I can’t recognize the body I have now … because it isn’t mine … I’m new at being old. I ran like a frightened gazelle, and I’d spring like a poked cobra, but you can’t stay that way forever, and I can’t talk about it enough."
The speech of the old man is amazing. It's like a series of Morrissey's statements. He talks about judges, police, royals, military, "they" (the society), marriage (the woman). I love that old man with all his apparent meanness, because he represents the hidden voices that need to be heard. The truth behind hypocrisy and vile exercises of power of our societies.

 

[Quando quando quando]

yes, that's right, as if erotic suppression is demanded by our institutions: "schooled", "constitutional frigidity".
so the narrative voice is taking sides with the four boys who can compliment each other on their physical beauty without feeling ashamed. so the voice is kind of wooing (the reader?) to accept sexual interest of others and reply to it in time. i think there is a shift in the voice, this kind of accusatory wooing wasn't there before.

This is very well observed, insightful and gives it a lead in how to understand it.

" yes, that's right, as if erotic suppression is demanded by our institutions: "schooled", "constitutional frigidity"

And even if there is, nowhere, anywhere a policy, a document to be found in any of these institutions, that is what it turned into.

" so the narrative voice is taking sides with the four boys who can compliment each other on their physical beauty without feeling ashamed. so the voice is kind of wooing (the reader?) to accept sexual interest of others and reply to it in time. i think there is a shift in the voice, this kind of accusatory wooing wasn't there before.[/QUOTE] "

This sentence gave me the idea that those 4 guys are actually the 4 Smiths.
And this novel is about them and what happened.
Don't want to speculate yet about which one of them is Ezra, Nails, Harri or Justy.

Sorry but at the time you initiated the study group I was already halfway through the book but stopped there.
And started again from the beginnings.
Cheers lanterns

 

[Quando quando quando]

Shut up, you pretentious c***.

Shut up yourself bigmouth.
You're an ignorant bastard.
Don't interfere with something you are too stupid to understand.
If there would ever be to found one braincell between your ears it would turn out to be a virus.
Go now and enjoy yourself elsewhere on the interwebs.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

There is not ordinary marriage against super marriage. There is a marriage for each person. Or not.

Actually there is 'super marriage' that of course is marriage to oneself.

but it's very difficult for one half to convince the other half to say 'yes'.

 

[countthree]

Actually there is 'super marriage' that of course is marriage to oneself.

but it's very difficult for one half to convince the other half to say 'yes'.

Never would say yes to myself...

 

[Quando quando quando]

Actually there is 'super marriage' that of course is marriage to oneself.

but it's very difficult for one half to convince the other half to say 'yes'.

Got no problems with that.
Doing it all the time.
Just a put some pressure and strength in it.
You should do it too.
It makes my life so much more easier.
And of course, I am the boss!
Cheers Ketamine

 

[Quando quando quando]

i just wanted to add some final thoughts on page 1-4:

1. the word "will" is used so many times and always in a positive way. the will is like a life energy, something that drives us forward, a pleasure principle. it has many enemies and is often denigrated.

2. the narrative voice feels sorry about "holding back the will". what makes people fight the "will" and "employ sexual indifference"? several answers are given:
a) moral inhibitions
b) over-trained prejudices, schooling against eroticism, constitutional frigidity
c) the knowledge of unhappy conventional unions in which people with similar weaknesses connect

3. holding back the "will" leads to unhappiness in older age

4. observers/watchers suppress the will and control the body. they want the "do-ers" to represent everything that the observers have suppressed in themselves, their hidden desires. this is explained in psychological detail on p. 3.

it seems as if the narrator understands that his/her admiration and idealization of the relay team is exactly that, a symptom of the need to see the suppressed will in action, but as s/he cannot allow it for him-/herself, the idols have to embody all that

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Got no problems with that.
Doing it all the time.
Just a put some pressure and strength in it.
You should do it too.
It makes my life so much more easier.
And of course, I am the boss!
Cheers Ketamine

Actually I'm in the middle of a divorce ....


with myself.

 

[Urbanus]

I happened to read what this book is about online and it seemed so silly it left me wondering what has happened to Morrissey in recent years.

Sorry for intruding your intellectual debate here, go on as if I was not here.

 

[Quando quando quando]

In the middle means halfways, so you go on and the divorse is complete or you go back and pretend to your other self it never happened. Distance is the same if you are halfways.
Don't start fighting with your other half for any other reason than an artistic one.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

In the middle means halfways, so you go on and the divorse is complete or you go back and pretend to your other self it never happened. Distance is the same if you are halfways.
Don't start fighting with your other half for any other reason than an artistic one.

no, I think it'll be o.k.

at least the alimony payments should go smoothly.

 

[Quando quando quando]

no, I think it'll be o.k.

at least the alimony payments should go smoothly.

See, I estimated you would first deal with the practical side to it.
The derision of property comes first cause that is the easiest part.
What happens next is secondary.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

no, I think it'll be o.k.

at least the alimony payments should go smoothly.

do you have to take turns sleeping in your house and in a van by the river?

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

do you have to take turns sleeping in your house and in a van by the river?

who's sleeping ? I wouldn't trust my other half as far as I can throw me, it, whatever.

Anyways to make matters more complicated my other half has multiple personality disorder.

And of course there's the children !

 

[nicky wire's legs]

who's sleeping ? I wouldn't trust my other half as far as I can throw me, it, whatever.

Anyways to make matters more complicated my other half has multiple personality disorder.

And of course there's the children !

oh goodness, looks like you're in a bit of a mess. and children too! i dont know what to say.. maybe you and your other half should try to work it out....

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

oh goodness, looks like you're in a bit of a mess. and children too! i dont know what to say.. maybe you and your other half should try to work it out....

never thought of that.