Lil Wayne wears Smiths t-shirt

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

That sort of reasoning kills all discussion, and thereby makes all forums obsolete.

I suspect that's why he never admitted, until just now, that his admiration rises only to the level of a crush.

 

[Worm]

That sort of reasoning kills all discussion, and thereby makes all forums obsolete.

Then I retract it!

I could argue and did argue for some of Taylor's virtues, in the other thread. And I know arguments can and have been made for Gaga, none of which I buy since she's transparently copying Madonna.

My point here is this: everyone, and I mean everyone, listens to music that is so bad it's indefensible. For me it might be Taylor Swift, for you it might be an old Liza Minelli and The Ewoks Sing Billie Holiday record. It was Linder, I think, who said it best. Speaking of Morrissey's taste, she said he had great taste and also reliably bad taste. We just don't listen to all of our record collections in the same, uniform way.

Who knows? Maybe this is how Lil Wayne thinks of The Smiths.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I suspect that's why he never admitted, until just now, that his admiration rises only to the level of a crush.

Which is more comprehensible.

 

[Worm]

I suspect that's why he never admitted, until just now, that his admiration rises only to the level of a crush.

You're kidding yourself if you think pop music doesn't appeal to its listeners erotically, and that goes for Morrissey as much as anyone else.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

You're kidding yourself if you think pop music doesn't appeal to its listeners erotically, and that goes for Morrissey as much as anyone else.

Of course it does. I admire most of idols looks. Not as much as their art, but still.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

You're kidding yourself if you think pop music doesn't appeal to its listeners erotically, and that goes for Morrissey as much as anyone else.

What kind of sick person finds Morrissey erotic? Uh...

I know this. But I read through all your Taylor Swift posts the same subtext: crush. Which you never admitted, until now. And it's true: it kills the debate.

Interesting question: does anyone, anywhere, have a crush on Gaga? She's so aggressively sexual that I can't imagine it.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

What kind of sick person finds Morrissey erotic? Uh...

I know this. But I read through all your Taylor Swift posts the same subtext: crush. Which you never admitted, until now. And it's true: it kills the debate.

Interesting question: does anyone, anywhere, have a crush on Gaga? She's so aggressively sexual that I can't imagine it.

I can admit to finding her somewhat attractive, yes. But crush? Naah...

 

[Worm]

Of course it does. I admire most of idols looks. Not as much as their art, but still.

Well, sure, I feel the same. But isn't the beauty of pop music that it hits you below the belt, so to speak? I admire the artistry of Joy Division and Martin Hannett, but I wouldn't give a damn about their music if it didn't move me physically. Meanwhile there are plenty of bands I like whom I do sort of "admire on the level of a crush", but on that level I like Sarah Martin of Belle and Sebastian or Diana Ross of The Supremes as much as Taylor Swift, for example. The thing is, the songwriting is strong enough to justify the "crush", it's just that the artistry consists of making itself invisible in the affective charge of the song. What appeals to me about Swift's "Our Song" is the songwriting, but I respond to it on a visceral level. I just like it.

I don't think it works any differently with "This Charming Man", actually, it's just that Morrissey is tenfold more complicated than most pop songwriters. The song opens out into many more dimensions of meaning. Fundamentally, though, Morrissey and Taylor Swift are both in the same game of trying to hook listeners, and sex is very much a part of that game, as it has been since Elvis and The Beatles. Hell, since dancing and rhythm were first invented.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

I can admit to finding her somewhat attractive, yes. But crush? Naah...

This makes me wonder if the appeal is aspirational; that people admire her balls more than they want to fondle them. And I think that's what she's trying to do: stir people up and get them to be bolder, which unfortunately doesn't amount to much, because boldness alone, without substance, is pretty pointless. She's empowering people to be shallow and materialistic more loudly.

 

[Worm]

I know this. But I read through all your Taylor Swift posts the same subtext: crush. Which you never admitted, until now. And it's true: it kills the debate.

Not really. As Gregor said, you only find it comprehensible as a crush. You're looking for that answer, but I haven't given it in the way you think I have. I have a crush on Morrissey, too, and plenty of others. Your definition of crush is too narrow.

 

[Worm]

stir people up and get them to be bolder, which unfortunately doesn't amount to much, because boldness alone, without substance, is pretty pointless. She's empowering people to be shallow and materialistic more loudly.

That's what Madonna was trying to do. And Madonna got rich.

Lady Gaga is imitating Madonna (does that make her a Madonna wannabe?) because Madonna has provided a template for getting rich. It's about money. She's a second- or third-order copy. I've heard her speak on a few occasions, during interviews, and it's painfully apparent. She has no more idea of what she's saying than a parrot does when it asks for a cracker.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Well, sure, I feel the same. But isn't the beauty of pop music that it hits you below the belt, so to speak? I admire the artistry of Joy Division and Martin Hannett, but I wouldn't give a damn about their music if it didn't move me physically. Meanwhile there are plenty of bands I like whom I do sort of "admire on the level of a crush", but on that level I like Sarah Martin of Belle and Sebastian or Diana Ross of The Supremes as much as Taylor Swift, for example. The thing is, the songwriting is strong enough to justify the "crush", it's just that the artistry consists of making itself invisible in the affective charge of the song. What appeals to me about Swift's "Our Song" is the songwriting, but I respond to it on a visceral level. I just like it.

I don't think it works any differently with "This Charming Man", actually, it's just that Morrissey is tenfold more complicated than most pop songwriters. The song opens out into many more dimensions of meaning. Fundamentally, though, Morrissey and Taylor Swift are both in the same game of trying to hook listeners, and sex is very much a part of that game, as it has been since Elvis and The Beatles. Hell, since dancing and rhythm were first invented.

Yes, but being moved phsyically is hardly the same as a crush. Maybe I'm too narrow as well, but... The feelings I get from listening to Closer by Joy Div is not the same as I get from hearing, for example, something by Maria Taylor (of Azure Ray), whom I find extremely attractive, and whom you might say I have a "fancrush" on.

I think you and I have too different interpretations. You put more into the word "crush" than I do.

This makes me wonder if the appeal is aspirational; that people admire her balls more than they want to fondle them. And I think that's what she's trying to do: stir people up and get them to be bolder, which unfortunately doesn't amount to much, because boldness alone, without substance, is pretty pointless. She's empowering people to be shallow and materialistic more loudly.

Gaga is the alternative mainstreamer. As most other mainstreampop she has hardly anything to say, yet she's blowing up a storm in that one field with regular mainstream means, amplified to the max.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

That's what Madonna was trying to do. And Madonna got rich.

Lady Gaga is imitating Madonna (does that make her a Madonna wannabe?) because Madonna has provided a template for getting rich. It's about money. She's a second- or third-order copy. I've heard her speak on a few occasions, during interviews, and it's painfully apparent. She has no more idea of what she's saying than a parrot does when it asks for a cracker.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt. The only coherent thing I've heard her say in interviews is what I stated above. And yes, it's imitative and shallow, a very thin mission. But it looks like she's accomplishing it.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Yes, but being moved phsyically is hardly the same as a crush. Maybe I'm too narrow as well, but... The feelings I get from listening to Closer by Joy Div is not the same as I get from hearing, for example, something by Maria Taylor (of Azure Ray), whom I find extremely attractive, and whom you might say I have a "fancrush" on.

I think you and I have too different interpretations. You put more into the word "crush" than I do.



Gaga is the alternative mainstreamer. As most other mainstreampop she has hardly anything to say, yet she's blowing up a storm in that one field with regular mainstream means, amplified to the max.

I think it was I who characterized his attraction to Swift that way--he defined it better than I did. I'm half teasing him, because I know he's at least as old as I am, and she's very, very young... nevertheless, in previous conversations he attempted to speak up for the quality of her music, her songwriting, etc., but only today admitted that he just likes her, full stop. Which really needs no defense, and can't be argued with. We like what we like.

 

[Worm]

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt. The only coherent thing I've heard her say in interviews is what I stated above. And yes, it's imitative and shallow, a very thin mission. But it looks like she's accomplishing it.

Genghis Khan accomplished most of his missions, too. Doesn't mean he knew Plato's Divided Line from a hole in the ground.

See, I don't give her the benefit of the doubt because her music is shit. It doesn't appeal to me at all. Instead of talking about Taylor Swift again, let me bring up an example of someone else, someone I don't listen to at all: Justin Timberlake. I give Justin Timberlake the benefit of the doubt as having some smarts and some talent and having some real business moxy based on strategies he probably grasps intellectually. I do so because I can detect some kind of intelligence in him, whether I find it listening to his songs, in one of his music videos, or in one of his (decent!) forays into film acting. Gaga's a tool and deserves no benefit of any kind other than a quick mercy killing once her ass stops making money for her.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Genghis Khan accomplished most of his missions, too. Doesn't mean he knew Plato's Divided Line from a hole in the ground.

See, I don't give her the benefit of the doubt because her music is shit. It doesn't appeal to me at all. Instead of talking about Taylor Swift again, let me bring up an example of someone else, someone I don't listen to at all: Justin Timberlake. I give Justin Timberlake the benefit of the doubt as having some smarts and some talent and having some real business moxy based on strategies he probably grasps intellectually. I do so because I can detect some kind of intelligence in him, whether I find it listening to his songs, in one of his music videos, or in one of his (decent!) forays into film acting. Gaga's a tool and deserves no benefit of any kind other than a quick mercy killing once her ass stops making money for her.

Interesting. You jump on Gaga for "copying" Madonna, yet champions Justin when his entire career is entirely based on emulating Michael Jackson and Prince.

 

[Happy Maudlin]

His favorite band is Nirvana, so I highly doubt that he doesn't know who The Smiths are. Stop pretending that only some elite music fans know who The Smiths are.

Good point. I was a big fan of Nirvana when I was thirteen. By means of progression I found out about the Pixies, then the Cure, then the Smiths and finally the illustrious Morrissey. It took me sometime to get into the Smiths though. If he knows the Smiths, great, but whether he can truly say that he has been been moved by either Morrissey's lyrics or Johnny Marr compositions is different. I fear that the Smiths has become one of those bands people proclaim to like because they heard it in some Judd Apatow film or saw 500 Days of Summer. I felt I hit nerve there.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Good point. I was a big fan of Nirvana when I was thirteen. By means of progression I found out about the Pixies, then the Cure, then the Smiths and finally the illustrious Morrissey. It took me sometime to get into the Smiths though. If he knows the Smiths, great, but whether he can truly say that he has been been moved by either Morrissey's lyrics or Johnny Marr compositions is different. I fear that the Smiths has become one of those bands people proclaim to like because they heard it in some Judd Apatow film or saw 500 Days of Summer. I felt I hit nerve there.

I think you're quite right here. Scary thing to happen to The Smiths I think.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Gaga's a tool and deserves no benefit of any kind other than a quick mercy killing once her ass stops making money for her.

Hater.

Interesting. You jump on Gaga for "copying" Madonna, yet champions Justin when his entire career is entirely based on emulating Michael Jackson and Prince.

I'm not sure about that at all.

Good point. I was a big fan of Nirvana when I was thirteen. By means of progression I found out about the Pixies, then the Cure, then the Smiths and finally the illustrious Morrissey. It took me sometime to get into the Smiths though. If he knows the Smiths, great, but whether he can truly say that he has been been moved by either Morrissey's lyrics or Johnny Marr compositions is different. I fear that the Smiths has become one of those bands people proclaim to like because they heard it in some Judd Apatow film or saw 500 Days of Summer. I felt I hit nerve there.

But that's an inevitable consequence of music passing into the past. Morrissey will never be as relevant as he was in 1984. No one who missed him back then (and that includes me, to an extent) can experience him the same way as those who first heard and saw him in context. The fact that he still has any relevance now speaks to the quality of his art, but you can't fault someone for liking something without any apparent understanding of the original context. It's pop music, after all, and it's not successful at all if it doesn't have a visceral pull. (See Worm's comments, above.) You can't complain about people not really "getting" The Smiths as "authentically" as you do. No one can, it's not fair.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I'm not sure about that at all.

Oh come on. Listen to his vocal style, his arrangements, look at his dancing, the songs in general. It's as obvious as snow.
And he is a very outspoken Michael-proclaimer.