The arms trade- discuss?

[MunchyBrain]

Because people seemed kind of interested when I mentioned it in the healthcare thread, and something I've been thinking about starting a thread about for a while...and also because I genuinely can't see how anyone can support the arms trade, no matter what their politics.

One of the best reports into the arms trade I've read recently was this. Seeing as I know most of you won't bother to read it, here's some highlights...

"Whilst the world gave $104 billion in development aid in 2006, world
military expenditure in the same year was $1,158 billion."

"If you bank with Barclays, Halifax Bank of Scotland, HSBC, Lloyds
TSB or Royal Bank of Scotland your money is supporting the
arms trade. In fact, the only UK high street bank that does not
finance the industry is the Co-operative Bank."

"At the start of the 20th century 5% of all war casualties were civilians; today 90% of people killed and wounded by armed conflict are civilians."

"One in four cluster munitions victims are children."

Etc etc. I could go on but I don't think it's neccessary?

 

[kurious oranj]

"If you bank with Barclays, Halifax Bank of Scotland, HSBC, Lloyds
TSB or Royal Bank of Scotland your money is supporting the
arms trade. In fact, the only UK high street bank that does not
finance the industry is the Co-operative Bank."

I already knew this but I think it's terrible. More terrible is the fact that most of the population are ignorant to this fact.

 

[j funk]

Again, whichever cafefully selected ethical companies the Co-Op are investing in, so are RBS.

Your ethical trust fund contains blood money.

I'm surprised you use a bank though.

 

[j funk]

And seeing as the majority of RBS is owned by the treasury, that also rules out cash. Better grow some crops to barter with.

 

[MunchyBrain]

Again, whichever cafefully selected ethical companies the Co-Op are investing in, so are RBS.

Your ethical trust fund contains blood money.

I'm surprised you use a bank though.

Where did I say I used a bank??

 

[nogodsnomasters85]

Again, whichever cafefully selected ethical companies the Co-Op are investing in, so are RBS.

Your ethical trust fund contains blood money.

I'm surprised you use a bank though.

This is perhaps the greatest indictment of modern capitalism. That we are, on a daily basis, forced to make these Faustian bargains, to become "agents of injustice". Ethical investment, or socially conscious consumption are for the most part simply games sdocially cioncerned people play with themselves. This is not entirely without exception, but in the big picture. Anyhow, back to the topic at hand..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/08/arms-trade-us-terrorists-nuclear
Heres' a great article from the Guardian on US companies selling weapons technology. This article only focus on private arms sales to terrorists and oppressive regimes, while the US government has directly sold weapons to some of the most prolific human rights violators. We supply the Israelis with a lot of hardware. We sold hardware to Saddam up until the invasion of Kuwait. Ford and Kissinger sold arms to the Indonesian military for the invasion and annexation of East Timor, even though that was illegal by US law, in addition to international law. On that happy note...

 

[j funk]

Where did I say I used a bank??

At the top.

 

[MunchyBrain]

At the top.

You're really strange. It doesn't say that ANYWHERE.

 

[Worm]

You're really strange. It doesn't say that ANYWHERE.

I think j funk means if you've ever used cash, you've used a bank, so to speak.

 

[MunchyBrain]

I think j funk means if you've ever used cash, you've used a bank, so to speak.

That doesn't really hold up.

 

[j funk]

Well our notes represent a deposit at the Bank of England, who now via the treasury own the majority of RBS.

So you tell me how many degrees of separation entitle you to absolve yourself of guilt.

As far as I can see there's only one between my bank account and your cash.

 

[j funk]

Also, your statistic on civilian casualties relates only to Gaza, which is generally reported as 60%.

 

[MunchyBrain]

Well our notes represent a deposit at the Bank of England, who now via the treasury own the majority of RBS.

So you tell me how many degrees of separation entitle you to absolve yourself of guilt.

As far as I can see there's only one between my bank account and your cash.

That's not the point, you always immediately resort to critisising my lifestyle. The point of capitalism is that you CAN'T avoid it or opt out. If you could opt out it wouldn't work. There's no point feeling guilty about something you have no choice but to be complicit in.

 

[j funk]

No, You can't opt out of the economy so I think I'm justified in pointing out that you're only making a difference to yourself with this particular lifestyle choice.

Don't criticise me for that fact that I use a bank, telling me I'm funding the arms trade, when you yourself are also doing so in an ever so slightly less direct way.

 

[MunchyBrain]

No, You can't opt out of the economy so I think I'm justified in pointing out that you're only making a difference to yourself with this particular lifestyle choice.

Don't criticise me for that fact that I use a bank, telling me I'm funding the arms trade, when you yourself are also doing so in an ever so slightly less direct way.

I think you misinterpreted it. I accept people have to use banks. But I think people should be aware and, hopefully, be inspired to take action in other ways.

 

[Dave]

I think you misinterpreted it. I accept people have to use banks. But I think people should be aware and, hopefully, be inspired to take action in other ways.

You're right. People can let their banks know what they think, and it probably won't make any difference in the immediate future, but awareness is not something to be resisted.

I think the problem is that older people, and we're almost all older than you, have mostly felt some degree of idealism at some point, and many of us either feel that we grew out of it or simply gave up and gave in, in order to pay the bills.

It's very difficult to accept that we are all slaves or prisoners, though that's very close to the truth. Very few people do what they want to or live up to their potential. When you've grown up to find that you have made compromises in order to survive at some level of comfort, it can be difficult to accept, and when someone points this out to you, it can cause you to feel resentment, and it's just too easy to feel this way towards an idealistic young person like yourself. I'm sorry that things are that way, because you serve a purpose with your idealistic causes, and maybe you connect to some part of people that have not either been totally brainwashed authoritarians from the start, or that have made compromises but have not decided to join the other side just to be on the side that's winning.

So keep it up, and accept that you will catch a lot of impersonal resentment. Try not to come across as self-righteous, which I don't think you do, but which is common with people that have an idealistic cause. Accept that it's not you that people get angry at, but what you represent, which is often some loss of youth and idealism.

 

[MunchyBrain]

You're right. People can let their banks know what they think, and it probably won't make any difference in the immediate future, but awareness is not something to be resisted.

I think the problem is that older people, and we're almost all older than you, have mostly felt some degree of idealism at some point, and many of us either feel that we grew out of it or simply gave up and gave in, in order to pay the bills.

It's very difficult to accept that we are all slaves or prisoners, though that's very close to the truth. Very few people do what they want to or live up to their potential. When you've grown up to find that you have made compromises in order to survive at some level of comfort, it can be difficult to accept, and when someone points this out to you, it can cause you to feel resentment, and it's just too easy to feel this way towards an idealistic young person like yourself. I'm sorry that things are that way, because you serve a purpose with your idealistic causes, and maybe you connect to some part of people that have not either been totally brainwashed authoritarians from the start, or that have made compromises but have not decided to join the other side just to be on the side that's winning.

So keep it up, and accept that you will catch a lot of impersonal resentment. Try not to come across as self-righteous, which I don't think you do, but which is common with people that have an idealistic cause. Accept that it's not you that people get angry at, but what you represent, which is often some loss of youth and idealism.

Thanks for this post.