Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article" - NME.com; libel c

UPDATE 11:00 AM PT:

Link posted by joe frady (original post) with additional info:

NME apologises to singer Morrissey over article - BBC News

The NME has publicly apologised to singer Morrissey over an article it published in 2007, which, the singer claimed, suggested he was racist.

Excerpt:

An NME spokeswoman said the magazine was "pleased it has buried the hatchet" with the singer.

She added the matter of the libel case was now closed and that the settlement did not involve payment of any damages or legal costs.

The case had been due to go to trial next month after Morrissey won a pre-trial hearing against former NME editor Conor McNicholas and IPC at the High Court last October.



George M sends the link:

NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article - NME.com
NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article

In December 2007, we published an article entitled 'Morrissey: Big mouth strikes again'.

Following this, Morrissey began proceedings for libel against us. His complaint is that we accused him of being a racist off the back of an interview which he gave to the magazine. He believes the article was edited in such a way that made him seem reactionary.

We wish to make clear that we do not believe that he is a racist; we didn’t think we were saying he was and we apologise to Morrissey if he or anyone else misunderstood our piece in that way. We never set out to upset Morrissey and we hope we can both get back to doing what we do best.


UPDATE 11:00PM PT:

Scan of NME print edition, page 11 posted by Iona Mink:

nmeapology.jpg




Related item:

 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

It is, though, a chosen ambiguity that he doesn't apply in all matters. In fact, we know him to be a man who has very clear, very strident opinions and he's been at pains for years to communicate to the public precisely what those opinions are. Meat-eating? Barbaric. Royalty? Unjust and dictatorial. Fellow pop singers? Talentless. Falkland Islands? Argentinian. George W. Bush and Tony Blair? War criminals. Barack Obama? A set of teeth. And so on... On all of these matters and many others, we know exactly where he stands and we don't need to ask twice (in fact, we didn't need to ask at all since his opinions were all spelt out for us, unsolicited).

I respectfully disagree. I recall an interview in which he admitted to wearing a leather belt and shoes. Just recently a user posted a link to a video in which, at the end, Morrissey said on BBC radio, in 1986, that leather was fine. He has publicly forgiven Oscar Wilde for eating meat. His hatred of royalty is somewhat mitigated by his deeper love of England ("The Queen Is Dead" is not a simple anti-royalist rant). He likes plenty of contemporary pop singers and always has. He was photographed wearing a Barack Obama t-shirt in 2008. On and on.

Add to this his penchant for camp overstatement and it's not at all clear that we know exactly what his views are. The one thing we can be reasonably sure of is his hatred of animal cruelty and his passion for vegetarianism, but everything else he believes is a question mark. He's admitted to lying to interviewers for no apparent reason. It's obvious he plays games with the press and says things for effect. He frequently appears to change his mind, such as calling the New York Dolls "stenchers" in the mid-80s or claiming to enjoy the Trojan record label despite calling reggae "vile".

He is one of the least consistent voices in the public arena. What makes him fascinating are the many ways he contradicts himself. It is in this way he can truly be called Wildean: he interests us precisely because all of his changing, self-contradictory views somehow seem to belong to the same personality, without conflict, and he makes us want to know why that is. That's been true since 1983. Books have been written, magazine articles have been published, video documentaries have been made, all highlighting his ambiguous, contradictory, slippery nature. This isn't me wiggling out of a tight corner.

Did Jonze (or whoever was responsible for the article) "wilfully coarsen and decontextualize his words to serve the cause of political correctness"? I don't know. If that's your claim though, give us a link to the unedited, unexpurgated transcript so that we can check for ourselves.

My claim is based on the fact that Morrissey's statements were not framed properly by the magazine. There was no attempt made to contextualize them. You have to understand, Tim Jonze has said-- and I believe him-- that he doesn't think Morrissey is a racist, per se. He believes Morrissey is a middle-aged man in love with an England that probably never existed outside his mind. He thinks Morrissey says things which have ramifications in the real world that he can't see or understand. His view, like the NME's in 1992, is that Morrissey isn't racist but his language is frequently inflammatory and therefore a matter of public concern. That isn't a horrible view of the situation at all. It's probably very sane and smart. But that isn't the way the NME presented Morrissey's remarks in 1997, and this is the basis for my claim.

If you want to correct me and say these were the doings of Conor McNicholas, not Tim Jonze, fine. I just have Jonze in my sights because his role in the affair is pretty shady all around, and ultimately I believe it was his choice not to pursue a conversation with Morrissey that would have defused this entire issue and made McNicholas' editorial decisions much easier. He was there. He had Morrissey in front of him. Morrissey may have brought up the topic of immigration, but Jonze could have pursued the subject.

And y'know what? If Morrissey's reputation and career were to become a casualty of "the cause of political correctness", seemingly because he cannot be arsed to articulate his views on immigration clearly, then I think I can live with it. I'm relieved to see that British culture has evolved to a point where, if somebody makes an apparently racist/xenophobic comment, they're likely to be criticised or challenged. If Morrissey or anybody else has difficulty accepting that British society has developed in that way, I really don't care.

First off, if you want to believe that, okay. I'm all for a healthy, polite society in which inflammatory language has no part. If you think Morrissey deserves what he got, fair enough. I think you're wrong, but I get where you're coming from.

Morrissey knows this perfectly well, yet he still chose to adopt the rhetoric of the extreme right. ... Talking inflammatory nonsense from his privileged position and then scuttling off to hide behind lawyers' letters when he gets criticism, though, is pretty pathetic.

I don't have an objection to most of the broader points you've made.

The fundamental problem which never seems to be addressed in the media, to which I alluded above, is this: can one love one's country and not be a racist? Can one love one's national identity and not be a xenophobe?

Globalization has forced this question on Britons and on everyone, everywhere. There are incredible problems in the acceptable, establishment-left attitude toward globalization, and they're obvious. For example, we all know that English or Americans trying to "open" an indigenous population in, say, Africa, for financial gain is frowned up on as imperialism. But in England and the United States, immigration (according to left orthodoxy) is completely fine; if immigration changes the "indigenous" population of a given nation, that's all for the good. Crudely: it's not okay for an indigenous tribe to be swallowed by an invading Western population, but it's okay for an indigenous tribe to migrate to the West and change the population there.

Before you tear that paragraph to shreds, let me just say that I already know that imperialism-immigration is a false equivalency, and I'm aware of other problems in what I've written. My only point is to illustrate that the problem is a messy, complicated one. It has many different sides and many different arguments. We are seeing this unfold in the United States with immigration from Mexico. Good citizens from both countries have to understand that while immigration is fine, for both nations, it has to be controlled, rational, and responsible. But it must be seen, first, that the issue is not an unambiguous one. We have to come to the problem with good sense and more than a little courage, because we have to address difficult questions in a way that allows for nuance. If we don't, we abandon the field to radical, polarizing, dangerous influences, such as the crazies in the States who wander around the Mexican border with rifles trying to enforce their own brand of "American justice", as well as their "respectable" counterparts in suits who sit on the boards of corporations, run PACs, and sometimes even hold seats in state and national legislatures.

All of which is to say that while it's fine and dandy to stand tall and proclaim an unambiguous, "no tolerance" policy toward these difficult problems plaguing our societies (e.g. hate crimes, violence against minorities, etc), it's actually counterproductive to the greater cause. The conversation has to start with the recognition that every one of us is flawed, to some degree, and comes to the table with biases and blind spots. The conversation has to be more complicated, not less. If we can't do that, our dialogues devolve into useless shouting matches-- or worse, the real villains step in and seize control. We actually need to talk to each other, not slap labels on people. While I find Morrissey's statements worrisome and certainly inflammatory to some degree, I also think he raises an important point, which I'll repeat: is it possible to love England and disapprove of the way immigration is changing the country, and yet not be a racist? Is there really nothing we can learn from that point of view?

I don't know if Morrissey really is the paradoxical figure I'm painting him to be. I don't know if he's a soft-hearted guy who genuinely loves England, genuinely gets along with people of other races, and yet has indefensible, troublesome views about immigration which echo those of extreme right-wingers. Maybe Morrissey really is a nationalist asshole and I'm totally wrong to give him the benefit of the doubt. The thing is, I don't know. And neither does the NME, because at every turn they've cut off any useful conversation about race and immigration and instead sensationalized the matter to sell papers. Circling back, this is frequently the problem with political correctness: it is a policing action, often mindlessly punitive, which stops conversations before they start. No decent person disagrees with the causes political correctness seeks to champion. The issue is with how it's done.
 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

As much as I bow to the massive intelligence of Worm and his posts, I have to say I find the last 2 posts overwhelingly persauvise. I might add my opinion, that in spite of loving the man and his music, I get the impression that the real issue is that he is simply not too bright. All his political comments are a tad useless. His statements on the monarchy for example are completely misguided. The problem with the monarchy is the institution, not the personalities involved. Preaching hatred of those horsey newly weds is purile. I saw him on the One show around his 50th birthday and they were discussing unemployment. His only contribution was that the unemployed should stop stressing about work and become artists! Likewise his comments on race and immigration. I don't think they are vague or nuanced, they are stupid and unhelpful.
I wish he'd shut up on grown up subjects and get a f***ing record deal! After all, that is his job.

Here's the crux of the problem.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you or I have "acceptable, thoughtful, intelligent" opinions. They are too dull to get on TV.

To get on TV, we would have to turn our "acceptable, thoughtful, intelligent" opinions into soundbites. And then, guess what? They would sound every bit as stupid and ill-considered as anything Morrissey says.

We are looking to draw water from a stone if we tune into TV shows looking for thoughtful discussion.
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Thoughtful post. Morrissey is playing with fire.

Yes, and for some of us, it's profoundly disappointing that "respectable" liberals, from the man in the street to Barack Obama ("a set of teeth" indeed), are not playing with fire. The other side certainly is. The other side has all the fire and the fury and all we have are Whole Foods and Comedy Central and inspirational refrigerator magnets.

I think that his accomplishments are so great, his talent so huge, and his art so profound that he has earned the benefit of the doubt. Lesser celebrities have been sunk by equally thoughtless words and actions, but Morrissey's contributions to the national (and international) discourse have been overwhelmingly positive. He knocked down walls when it came to notions of tolerance and cultural acceptance, and that makes this whole notion of racism on his part such a fraught issue.

Pefectly said. There's an overwhelming amount of positive statements coming from Morrissey, within and without his music. What I find most baffling is the way his critics pretend he's doing an about-face. They're always scratching their heads, saying, "How can leftist Morrissey hold such right-wing views?" As if he were Stephen Hawking proclaiming the Earth is flat.

Please, boys, try and use your noodles to figure out how his views might be compatible. Just try! Make the attempt! Those views may not be compatible, in the end, and maybe we'll have to give up on old Morrissey, but the effort would push the conversation forward and help enlighten and inform everyone.
 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Just for compare/contrast purposes I offer up this quote:

Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white. I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism. It’s much heavier, man. f***ing wogs, man. f***ing Saudis taking over London. Bastard wogs. Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back.

Surely it's far more racist and ugly than anything Morrissey has ever said.

Surely it's the voice of someone who truly hates non-whites and their dirtying of pretty England.

Surely it would sink a career to the bottom of the ocean, never to rise again.

Know who said it?

Eric Clapton...
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Just for compare/contrast purposes I offer up this quote:

Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white. I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism. It’s much heavier, man. f***ing wogs, man. f***ing Saudis taking over London. Bastard wogs. Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back.

Surely it's far more racist and ugly than anything Morrissey has ever said.

Surely it's the voice of someone who truly hates non-whites and their dirtying of pretty England.

Surely it would sink a career to the bottom of the ocean, never to rise again.

Know who said it?

Eric Clapton...

Read the Wiki entry, there's even more interesting stuff.

Two points of interest about Clapton's comments:

First, he explained his comments by saying he was onstage and the whole thing felt theatrical, like a Python skit. Doesn't excuse his words, but offers context and insight into his frame of mind.

Second, and more importantly in my view, is that he calls himself "deliberately oblivious". He admits he knows nothing.

Truly radical racists-- bad guys-- win the support of "deliberately oblivious" people when the latter feel as if nobody is articulating their concerns and viewpoints. Here in the States, we have a movement, the Tea Party, which is almost entirely the result of politicians ignoring the concerns of working class whites. They feed off the anger of people infuriated by a perceived lack of representation in the public sphere. They see illegal immigrants as job-takers, and they see citizens of foreign countries as terrorists and/or job-takers, and nobody in Washington or in the punditocracy seems to speak up on their behalf. There simply isn't a strong, middle-of-the-road, mainstream politician whom they can trust on these issues, so they throw in with radicals, who of course further radicalize them. Only a tiny minority turn violent, but many vote for "America First!" political candidates and that's how things get so ugly. What passes for the left wing ignores these people and dismisses their concerns as "racist" or "reactionary" instead of opening up a two-way discussion to figure out a path forward that allows for the interests of everyone.
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Read the Wiki entry, there's even more interesting stuff.

Two points of interest about Clapton's comments:

First, he explained his comments by saying he was onstage and the whole thing felt theatrical, like a Python skit. Doesn't excuse his words, but offers context and insight into his frame of mind.

Second, and more importantly in my view, is that he calls himself "deliberately oblivious". He admits he knows nothing.

Truly radical racists-- bad guys-- win the support of "deliberately oblivious" people when the latter feel as if nobody is articulating their concerns and viewpoints. Here in the States, we have a movement, the Tea Party, which is almost entirely the result of politicians ignoring the concerns of working class whites. They feed off the anger of people infuriated by a perceived lack of representation in the public sphere. They see illegal immigrants as job-takers, and they see citizens of foreign countries as terrorists and/or job-takers, and nobody in Washington or in the punditocracy seems to speak up on their behalf. There simply isn't a strong, middle-of-the-road, mainstream politician whom they can trust on these issues, so they throw in with radicals, who of course further radicalize them. Only a tiny minority turn violent, but many vote for "America First!" political candidates and that's how things get so ugly. What passes for the left wing ignores these people and dismisses their concerns as "racist" or "reactionary" instead of opening up a two-way discussion to figure out a path forward that allows for the interests of everyone.



Just to hair-split ( and, indeed, be unpleasant, perhaps), I'd argue it's more than a tiny minority that turns violent. If both major political parties advocate the whole "... no retreat , no surrender ...' bit and , relatively, openly so , can the majority of voters voting for the two be classified as " non -violent" ?


Did I mention hair-splitting ? I suppose I'm probably talking at cross-purposes to you i.e. where does moral culpability start/end for e.g. a million or so dead Iraqis ?
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Just to hair-split ( and, indeed, be unpleasant, perhaps), I'd argue it's more than a tiny minority that turns violent. If both major political parties advocate the whole "... no retreat , no surrender ...' bit and , relatively, openly so , can the majority of voters voting for the two be classified as " non -violent" ?


Did I mention hair-splitting ? I suppose I'm probably talking at cross-purposes to you i.e. where does moral culpability start/end for e.g. a million or so dead Iraqis ?

Touché.

Any way you look at it, the point is that people aren't having real discussions, at least not in any meaningful public way. The breakdown in our public discourse has a lot of causes, but some of them (let's continue to beat the dead horse) are caused by editorial decisions such as those made by the NME in 1992 and 2007.
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Touché.

Any way you look at it, the point is that people aren't having real discussions, at least not in any meaningful public way.



No, of course I gather. Back to topic , how does one distinguish between patriotism and gutter nationalism ( which, I presume, we imagine is the point Moz may have brought forward ) ?
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

No, of course I gather. Back to topic , how does one distinguish between patriotism and gutter nationalism ( which, I presume, we imagine is the point Moz may have brought forward ) ?

Well, for starters, you have to recognize the choice between patriotism and gutter nationalism is a false one. That was kind of what I was trying to say, above.

It's a huge question to answer. At what point does a person cross a line between loving his own country and hating another person, race, or nation?

You've got to approach it philosophically and practically. Philosophically, well, we won't get into that here. :) Practically, start by acknowledging the need for regulated immigration, seek to make that work better, and then start to grapple with the larger questions relating to globalization, starting with a simple one: why are so many people moving around?

But I think there's another way to start to approach this problem, which is easier, if less direct. It's this. Who out there, famous or otherwise, embodies the ideal mixture of love of one's own country and a commitment to justice for everyone? Are there examples? Could we look to anyone as a beacon for how we might explore what it means to be a citizen of the world and, at the same time, firmly rooted in one's locality? If so, are there any clues we could take away toward a solution? As an American, the figure I think of immediately is Walt Whitman. (I don't put him forth as the answer to our troubles, just as an example; a lot of the anti-establishment figures of the 1960s revered Walt Whitman, and many were deeply in love with America even as they criticized it fiercely.)

However you start, whatever angle you take, all of these questions usually return to the central one, which is, what are the economic conditions responsible for (a) big influxes of immigrant populations and (b) the lack of outreach to assimilate them into their new countries?
 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Well, for starters, you have to recognize the choice between patriotism and gutter nationalism is a false one. That was kind of what I was trying to say, above.

It's a huge question to answer. At what point does a person cross a line between loving his own country and hating another person, race, or nation?

You've got to approach it philosophically and practically. Philosophically, well, we won't get into that here. :) Practically, start by acknowledging the need for regulated immigration, seek to make that work better, and then start to grapple with the larger questions relating to globalization, starting with a simple one: why are so many people moving around?

But I think there's another way to start to approach this problem, which is easier, if less direct. It's this. Who out there, famous or otherwise, embodies the ideal mixture of love of one's own country and a commitment to justice for everyone? Are there examples? Could we look to anyone as a beacon for how we might explore what it means to be a citizen of the world and, at the same time, firmly rooted in one's locality? If so, are there any clues we could take away toward a solution? As an American, the figure I think of immediately is Walt Whitman. (I don't put him forth as the answer to our troubles, just as an example; a lot of the anti-establishment figures of the 1960s revered Walt Whitman, and many were deeply in love with America even as they criticized it fiercely.)

Whatever the case, all of these questions usually return to the central one, which is, what are the economic conditions responsible for (a) big influxes of immigrant populations and (b) the lack of outreach to assimilate them into their new countries?



If I had to answer the question of "...who embodies...?" , it would have to be Orwell. A leftist who deplored Stalinism , a patriot who saw pacifism in WW2 as morally incoherent and a UK citizen who understood what his nation had gained from imperialism while still considering such abhorrent. of course, he did end up becoming a pin-up boy for Hitchens, but that's hardly his fault...


Oh, and as a more practical idea , I've always been a fan of foreign aid as a way of lessening the need for the impoverished to seek foreign climes and of unionism as a way of reducing the likelihood of having local labour conditions undermined ( which has been, traditionally, the reason for the importation of foreign labour i.e. "... they're used to f*** all back there so they'll work happily for next to f*** all over here ... etc. " .
 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

As much as I bow to the massive intelligence of Worm and his posts, I have to say I find the last 2 posts overwhelingly persauvise. I might add my opinion, that in spite of loving the man and his music, I get the impression that the real issue is that he is simply not too bright. All his political comments are a tad useless. His statements on the monarchy for example are completely misguided. The problem with the monarchy is the institution, not the personalities involved. Preaching hatred of those horsey newly weds is purile. I saw him on the One show around his 50th birthday and they were discussing unemployment. His only contribution was that the unemployed should stop stressing about work and become artists! Likewise his comments on race and immigration. I don't think they are vague or nuanced, they are stupid and unhelpful.
I wish he'd shut up on grown up subjects and get a f***ing record deal! After all, that is his job.

You are right, Peter. Morrissey, is an intellectual lightweight with foolish, badly thought-out views on pretty much any weighty subject.
He'd be eaten alive in Question Time. He was asked about the PM of Ireland a few years ago, and simply said that the man had a bad hair cut.
Just embarrassing.
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

If I had to answer the question of "...who embodies...?" , it would have to be Orwell. A leftist who deplored Stalinism , a patriot who saw pacifism in WW2 as morally incoherent and a UK citizen who understood what his nation had gained from imperialism while still considering such abhorrent. of course, he did end up becoming a pin-up boy for Hitchens, but that's hardly his fault...

Orwell does come to mind, yes, and Orwell is also an interesting person to mention because he understood sentimentality. Although he hardly encouraged it, he saw that people formed sentimental attachments to their homelands and did not wish to delegitimize such attachments, even as he argued for minimizing or redirecting them.

The Dickens essay is the one to go back to: "Nearly everyone, whatever his actual conduct may be, responds emotionally to the idea of human brotherhood. Dickens voiced a code which was and on the whole still is believed in, even by people who violate it. It is difficult otherwise to explain why he could be both read by working people (a thing that has happened to no other novelist of his stature) and buried in Westminster Abbey."

Earlier in the essay he writes, "Dickens's lack of vulgar nationalism is in part the mark of a real largeness of mind, and in part results from his negative, rather unhelpful political attitude. He is very much an Englishman but he is hardly aware of it — certainly the thought of being an Englishman does not thrill him. He has no imperialist feelings, no discernible views on foreign politics, and is untouched by the military tradition. Temperamentally he is much nearer to the small noncomformist tradesman who looks down on the ‘redcoats’, and thinks that war is wicked — a one-eyed view, but after all, war is wicked." This is a sketch of a man who is neither a narrow-minded nationalist or a wide-open cosmopolitan. Orwell identified an alternative to both the patriot and the gutter nationalist: a thoroughly English man who, despite "negative, rather unhelpful" political attitudes, was not plagued with nationalism or racism. He could be English, he could be sentimental, but he could also hold fast to an emotionally-charged belief in "human brotherhood".

I have always thought of Morrissey when reading the essay's last line: "[Dickens was] a man who is always fighting against something, but who fights in the open and is not frightened, the face of a man who is generously angry — in other words, of a nineteenth-century liberal, a free intelligence, a type hated with equal hatred by all the smelly little orthodoxies which are now contending for our souls."

Thanks for jogging my memory, xyz. :)

Oh, and as a more practical idea , I've always been a fan of foreign aid as a way of lessening the need for the impoverished to seek foreign climes and of unionism as a way of reducing the likelihood of having local labour conditions undermined ( which has been, traditionally, the reason for the importation of foreign labour i.e. "... they used to f*** all back there so they'll work happily for next to f*** all over here ... etc. " .

Foreign aid gets way too political, in my opinion, and at any rate hand-outs (of any kind, on any scale) aren't the way to go in the long run. Labor movements are great. You're at least barking up the right trees.

Or you might bark up a different forest altogether and declare the right, universal and inviolable, for every single human being on the planet to earn a decent, living wage-- wherever he chooses-- and undertake the task of reshaping social, political, and economic forces to make that a reality.
 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Stop editing your posts in the middle of my reply ! It makes it all very confusing...

More sensibly, the ( yes, I'm going to say it ) politicisation of foreign aid - I'm not sure I see it . Examples ? Hand outs ? I have the opinion that it's just a return of some of the spoils...


The idea of Dickens and your last paragraph seem equally vague. I know, we're all grown-ups and I can say that without tears but , as ever, perhaps the notion itself is incapable of being less vague... ?

STOP PRESS - WORM'S DICKEN'S INVOCATION HAS BALANCED ITSELF REALLY RATHER WELL

Persevering ( through the vodka haze), I understand the UN declaration on such things is the guideline but what are the implementations ? I ask because I obviously can't be sure and head-scratching is more fun when done, chimp-style, collectively....
 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Stop editing your posts in the middle of my reply ! It makes it all very confusing...

Sorry, couldn't help it. I hadn't revisited the essay in awhile and kept feasting on new chunks. Orwell was a brilliant essayist.

More sensibly, the ( yes, I'm going to say it ) politicisation of foreign aid - I'm not sure I see it . Examples ? Hand outs ? I have the opinion that it's just a return of some of the spoils...

It's a general objection, on principle. Morrissey said it best in 1985, regarding Live Aid. Helping starving Africans was a noble cause, he said (I'm paraphrasing), but Western governments could feed every man, woman in child in Africa and they chose not to. That was the real story. Charity, whatever one calls it, obscures the larger point that we can take care of everyone but we don't. I don't want to think about how much money I can give starving people. I want to think about how to help them feed themselves-- or, from another vantage point, I want to think about ways to stop my government from preventing them from doing same.

I understand the UN declaration on such things is the guideline but what are the implementations?

I don't know. The C-word, maybe?
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

some things I take issue with from above:

1. I feel fairly certain that it is only a tiny minority which turn violent, however, these people thrive on having another 9 people along with them when they start something, I've seen it in the fights I've been in and even the wars I've fought in :cool:
2. It is not "we" who could feed the rest of the world and instead make it starve, like most, I have been poor to middle class my whole life. Instead, it is a very, very, very, tiny group of people control almost all of the wealth of the world and their actions, or lack thereof, are what create the horror which is this material world of the here and now


ps: at least we aint talkin about the idiotic notion of Moz being a racist anymore :thumb:
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

It's a general objection, on principle. Morrissey said it best in 1985, regarding Live Aid. Helping starving Africans was a noble cause, he said (I'm paraphrasing), but Western governments could feed every man, woman in child in Africa and they chose not to. That was the real story. Charity, whatever one calls it, obscures the larger point that we can take care of everyone but we don't. I don't want to think about how much money I can give starving people. I want to think about how to help them feed themselves-- or, from another vantage point, I want to think about ways to stop my government from preventing them from doing same.




Orwell is a brilliant essayist. The "Boys Weekly" essay, especially, is both piss-funny and insightful.



The Moz "Live Aid" position is one I always found remarkably intelligent for a 25 yr old ne'er-do-well. "Live Aid" was indeed inadvertently directed at thirteen year old Wiganites who are, after all, the last people who should be expected to address such a situation. 80s Ethiopia was, truly, a political situation with political solutions.


Yes, I'm probably banging the drum but reputable aid agencies (e.g. Red Cross , UNRWA, MSF, etc. ) are focused on long-term feasibility as opposed to, you know, the whole throwing-bags-of-grain-out-the-aircraft thing. When our governments fail, citizens have to step into the breach.


And I agree further ( with myself ?) after reading more of the Orwell quote on Dickens. Thanks for digging it up at the opportune time...
 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

some things I take issue with from above:

1. I feel fairly certain that it is only a tiny minority which turn violent, however, these people thrive on having another 9 people along with them when they start something, I've seen it in the fights I've been in and even the wars I've fought in :cool:

2. It is not "we" who could feed the rest of the world and instead make it starve, like most, I have been poor to middle class my whole life, a very, very, very, tiny group of people control almost all of the wealth of the world and their actions, or lack thereof are what create the horror which is this material world

Fair points, Robby. The discussion has become much broader and more general, so naturally there are plenty of holes to punch in various statements made here.

Yes, "we" is a problematic word, but there, again-- following on xyz's point, above-- the question of culpability is a tricky one. If we agree a very, very, very tiny group of people control the world, even so, couldn't we do something about it if we wanted to? There would seem to be a few precedents in history, at least, for we the people looking out for our interests. Hell, I say that and I'm not even in the Tea Party. :)

This is all beside the point, however. Everything said above could be complete and utter nonsense; actually, I'm counting down the seconds until someone chimes into this thread to say I'm an idiot.

The purpose of asking all these questions is to offer a small hint of how a real discussion about race and immigration might begin. Lots of factors enter into the picture. It's a vast and difficult topic to address. And all of it goes away in a puff of smoke as soon as someone ambushes the conversation with charges of racism. If the editors felt that the NME wasn't the right forum in which to conduct a long, careful, properly nuanced discussion about race and immigration-- not among nobodies on an Internet discussion board, that is, but involving professors, writers, critics, historians, and politicians even-- then they should have backed out of the subject altogether or at any rate avoided smearing Morrissey's name with the words they published-- or, better yet, the words they did not publish but easily could have.

Here's Simon Reynolds in 1988, having a conversation with Morrissey about one of his shock songs, "Margaret On The Guillotine". Notice the set-up. Notice how a real journalist pushes back, intelligently, against an interview subject's answers and draws out a more interesting piece of reading. He actually gets Morrissey to admit his awareness that MOTG is "childish and petulant". He also gets Morrissey to concede that his song is silly-- but Morrissey says silly and brave, which is a humungous clue as to how Morrissey views his own statements and lyrics.

One line in the song seems to me to be very revealing: when you say you want to see her killed "Because people like you/make me feel so tired... so old inside". If you compare The Smiths with the previous Great White Hopes, the Pivotal Rock Bands of preceding eras, it's clear that the rebellion of the Stones, Who, Pistols, Jam, was based in some kind of activism or at least action, an optimism about the potential of collective or individual agency. But The Smiths' "rebellion" is more like resistance through withdrawal, through subsiding into enervation.

The fantasy in "Margaret On The Guillotine" is more like wishful thinking, than the resolve to do violence, or even personify violence threatrically, onstage. Isn't the effect of "Margaret" just to encourage wistful resignation?

"Maybe, but I do also firmly believe in action. But also there's a great sense of doorstep rebellion, and stamping of feet. I think, above all, that dealing with people's manipulations is very tiring. You grow old very quickly when every day of your life you're trying to win arguments. Politically, I do feel exhausted. I do feel there are no more demonstrations, no more petitions to be signed. I think those things and group meetings and creches, are completely boring and a waste of time. I do feel a sense of apathy."

I'm interested you talk about "stamping of feet", because this fantasy of offing Mrs. Thatcher, as though this would somehow solve everything, as if the "evil" in this country weren't a tad more structural and entrenched - well, there's something a bit childish and petulant about it.

"Believe me, I'm totally aware of that. But there's also something important about it. The song is silly, it's also very heavy, and it's also very brave. And I sit back and smile. Surely you can see that the very serious elements in it puts the kind of straightforward, demonstration, 'Maggie Maggie Maggie Out Out Out' protest song, in its place and makes it seem trite and a little bit cosy?"

The thing with protest songs is that pop's always been about the immediate, spontaneous, and puerile, it hasn't the patience to slog through sub-committees and lobbying and making orderly demands through proper channels. Pop isn't programmatic, it wants the world and it wants it now, and it's much more satisfying to hear about your enemy being slaughtered. Even if it's just a fantasy...

"Is it? You obviously haven't listened. I think it's possible. The times are quite ropey. Things are touch-and-go. You don't believe me?"

But it's like you say, there's this battening down that's seeping throughout society and the result is enervation and retrenchment. You can feel it on every level of life. A "trivial" example: when you get on a bus. They've got rid of the conductors, to save costs, and you have these pay-as-you-enter buses, and getting on and off takes longer and is more stressful, journeys are longer, and you can see ordinary people get more harrassed, bottling it up. But the effect of being shat on is to set people against each other. While the nasty people have banded together, the money people.

"Well, yes, there's a lot of organised suffering in England right now."​
 
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Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Fair points, Robby. The discussion has become much broader and more general, so naturally there are plenty of holes to punch in various statements made here.

Yes, "we" is a problematic word, but there, again-- following on xyz's point, above-- the question of culpability is a tricky one. If we agree a very, very, very tiny group of people control the world, even so, couldn't we do something about it if we wanted to? There would seem to be a few precedents in history, at least, for we the people looking out for our interests. Hell, I say that and I'm not even in the Tea Party. :)

This is all beside the point, however. Everything said above could be complete and utter nonsense; actually, I'm counting down the seconds until someone chimes into this thread to say I'm an idiot.

The purpose of asking all these questions is to offer a small hint of how a real discussion about race and immigration might begin. Lots of factors enter into the picture. It's a vast and difficult topic to address. And all of it goes away in a puff of smoke as soon as someone ambushes the conversation with charges of racism. If the editors felt that the NME wasn't the right forum in which to conduct a long, careful, properly nuanced discussion about race and immigration-- not among nobodies on an Internet discussion board, that is, but involving professors, writers, critics, historians, and politicians even-- then they should have backed out of the subject altogether or at any rate avoided smearing Morrissey's name with the words they published-- or, better yet, the words they did not publish but easily could have.

Here's Simon Reynolds in 1988, having a conversation with Morrissey about one of his shock songs, "Margaret On The Guillotine". Notice the set-up. Notice how a real journalist pushes back, intelligently, against an interview subject's answers and draws out a more interesting piece of reading. He actually gets Morrissey to admit his awareness that MOTG is "childish and petulant". He also gets Morrissey to concede that his song is silly-- but Morrissey says silly and brave, which is a humungous clue as to how Morrissey views his own statements and lyrics.

One line in the song seems to me to be very revealing: when you say you want to see her killed "Because people like you/make me feel so tired... so old inside". If you compare The Smiths with the previous Great White Hopes, the Pivotal Rock Bands of preceding eras, it's clear that the rebellion of the Stones, Who, Pistols, Jam, was based in some kind of activism or at least action, an optimism about the potential of collective or individual agency. But The Smiths' "rebellion" is more like resistance through withdrawal, through subsiding into enervation.

The fantasy in "Margaret On The Guillotine" is more like wishful thinking, than the resolve to do violence, or even personify violence threatrically, onstage. Isn't the effect of "Margaret" just to encourage wistful resignation?

"Maybe, but I do also firmly believe in action. But also there's a great sense of doorstep rebellion, and stamping of feet. I think, above all, that dealing with people's manipulations is very tiring. You grow old very quickly when every day of your life you're trying to win arguments. Politically, I do feel exhausted. I do feel there are no more demonstrations, no more petitions to be signed. I think those things and group meetings and creches, are completely boring and a waste of time. I do feel a sense of apathy."

I'm interested you talk about "stamping of feet", because this fantasy of offing Mrs. Thatcher, as though this would somehow solve everything, as if the "evil" in this country weren't a tad more structural and entrenched - well, there's something a bit childish and petulant about it.

"Believe me, I'm totally aware of that. But there's also something important about it. The song is silly, it's also very heavy, and it's also very brave. And I sit back and smile. Surely you can see that the very serious elements in it puts the kind of straightforward, demonstration, 'Maggie Maggie Maggie Out Out Out' protest song, in its place and makes it seem trite and a little bit cosy?"

The thing with protest songs is that pop's always been about the immediate, spontaneous, and puerile, it hasn't the patience to slog through sub-committees and lobbying and making orderly demands through proper channels. Pop isn't programmatic, it wants the world and it wants it now, and it's much more satisfying to hear about your enemy being slaughtered. Even if it's just a fantasy...

"Is it? You obviously haven't listened. I think it's possible. The times are quite ropey. Things are touch-and-go. You don't believe me?"

But it's like you say, there's this battening down that's seeping throughout society and the result is enervation and retrenchment. You can feel it on every level of life. A "trivial" example: when you get on a bus. They've got rid of the conductors, to save costs, and you have these pay-as-you-enter buses, and getting on and off takes longer and is more stressful, journeys are longer, and you can see ordinary people get more harrassed, bottling it up. But the effect of being shat on is to set people against each other. While the nasty people have banded together, the money people.

"Well, yes, there's a lot of organised suffering in England right now."​




It is funny, isn't it - how an intelligent interviewer explores the ostensibly "terror -ism" topic of political assassination while Jonze, etc. sneer and scurry regarding some umming and aahing about national identity . No wonder Moz and others bemoan the quality implosion of music journalism...
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

It is funny, isn't it - how an intelligent interviewer explores the ostensibly "terror -ism" topic of political assassination while Jonze, etc. sneer and scurry regarding some umming and aahing about national identity . No wonder Moz and others bemoan the quality implosion of music journalism...

Wait until you read this. Same interview.

Viva Hate, unsurprisingly, returns again and again to the Englishness which obsesses Morrissey. For instance, the probable next single "Everyday Is Like Sunday" pores over the drab details of some benighted seaside resort... "Hide on the promenade/Scatch out a postcard/How I dearly wish I was not here... trudging slowly over wet sand... win yourself a cheap tray... share some greased tea with me"... Typically, Morrissey seems to cherish the very constraints and despondency of a now disappearing England, fetishise the lost limits.

What is this love/hate relationship you have with Englishness?

"There are very few aspects of Englishness I actually hate. I can see the narrowness, and love to sing about it. But I don't hate Englishness in any way. All aspects of affluence, I find very interesting and entertaining. And it's still, I feel, cliche as it may seem, the sanest country in the world."

But there is the echo of Betjeman-on-Slough in the line "Come! come! come - nuclear bomb!" I mean, if it was such a rotten holiday, why hark back to it?

"That never really occurred to me. The pleasure is getting it out of your system, saying 'never again' instead of 'same time next year'. And the British holiday resort is just like a symbol of Britain's absurdity really. The idea of a resort in Britain doesn't seem natural."

On the same subject, there's the line in "Bengali In Platforms": "Shelve your Western plans/And understand/That life is hard enough when you belong here". Don't you think the song could be taken as condescending?
"Yeeeees... I do think it could be taken that way, and another journalist has said that it probably will. But it's not being deliberately provocative. It's just about people who, in order to be embraced or feel at home, buy the most absurd English clothes."

"An ankle star that blinds me... a lemon sole so very high..." - this is the first of the many Seventies references that permeate the album.​

"Bengali In Platforms" is really about English clothing? Related to his memories of the 1970s? What language he speak? Head hurts. Please. Stop.
 
Re: Article: "NME says sorry to Morrissey for the misunderstanding over 2007 article"

Wait until you read this. Same interview.

Viva Hate, unsurprisingly, returns again and again to the Englishness which obsesses Morrissey. For instance, the probable next single "Everyday Is Like Sunday" pores over the drab details of some benighted seaside resort... "Hide on the promenade/Scatch out a postcard/How I dearly wish I was not here... trudging slowly over wet sand... win yourself a cheap tray... share some greased tea with me"... Typically, Morrissey seems to cherish the very constraints and despondency of a now disappearing England, fetishise the lost limits.

What is this love/hate relationship you have with Englishness?

"There are very few aspects of Englishness I actually hate. I can see the narrowness, and love to sing about it. But I don't hate Englishness in any way. All aspects of affluence, I find very interesting and entertaining. And it's still, I feel, cliche as it may seem, the sanest country in the world."

But there is the echo of Betjeman-on-Slough in the line "Come! come! come - nuclear bomb!" I mean, if it was such a rotten holiday, why hark back to it?

"That never really occurred to me. The pleasure is getting it out of your system, saying 'never again' instead of 'same time next year'. And the British holiday resort is just like a symbol of Britain's absurdity really. The idea of a resort in Britain doesn't seem natural."

On the same subject, there's the line in "Bengali In Platforms": "Shelve your Western plans/And understand/That life is hard enough when you belong here". Don't you think the song could be taken as condescending?
"Yeeeees... I do think it could be taken that way, and another journalist has said that it probably will. But it's not being deliberately provocative. It's just about people who, in order to be embraced or feel at home, buy the most absurd English clothes."

"An ankle star that blinds me... a lemon sole so very high..." - this is the first of the many Seventies references that permeate the album.​

"Bengali In Platforms" is really about English clothing? Related to his memories of the 1970s? What language he speak? Head hurts. Please. Stop.




What ? The fetishising of race by those most marginalised by the concept of such ? What ? An (admittedly vague) understanding of the classic psychiatric defence mechanism of identification with the aggressor ? The Stockholm syndrome ? Huh ? Are you crazy, Worm ?! As well as Moz and the interviewer and me and anyone with half a brain ? Dear god , next thing you'll be talking about nuances ... can't we just get back to being righteously indignant or docilely indifferent ?
 
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