Jesus of Nazareth, known as "J-dogg" by some

[nicky wire's legs]

I didn’t! But I thought she had a very beautiful face. She felt like the real deal. So much raw emotion in that face.

The ending of the film is my favourite part, so robust and jubilant. I love that the film is never mawkish and sentimental but flows on lyrically. And I love the music that permeates it.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

 

[gashonthenail]

"Don't cry for me, gashonthenail," sings Jesus to the tune of Andrew Lloyd Webber. He won't be completely forgotten, and he had a very good run while it lasted. More than anything else he was lucky to have had Paul. Without Paul, Jesus just rots in a criminal's grave and gets forgotten by time, or at best he rates a tiny footnote as a 1st c. Messiah claimant. Don't cry for Paul, either. Paul is possibly the most-read author in all of human history. Not bad for a bald, conflicted, mystical Jew. But you (generic you) have to know when enough is enough. Let Jesus go. He'll be okay. Being seated at the right hand of the Father is probably a pretty good spot.

I think we can all understand and relate to your desire to irritate and piss off evangelical Christians in your home country. But just remember one thing, Aubs: you live in a country whose constitution doesn't mention God once and makes it clear that religion is no business of the state. That is unthinkable in a country where the population is Muslim. I am not religious. But if I had to choose between a religion that teaches a personal relationship with the divine (at least in its post-reformation form), and a religion that teaches submit and do as you are told, it would be the former every time.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

The ending of the film is my favourite part, so robust and jubilant. I love that the film is never mawkish and sentimental but flows on lyrically. And I love the music that permeates it.

Agree wholeheartedly with all of the above! Excellent use of Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

But just remember one thing, Aubs: you live in a country whose constitution doesn't mention God once and makes it clear that religion is no business of the state. That is unthinkable in a country where the population is Muslim.

Indonesia is a Muslim-majority country and doesn’t have a state religion.

I am not religious. But if I had to choose between a religion that teaches a personal relationship with the divine (at least in its post-reformation form), and a religion that teaches submit and do as you are told, it would be the former every time.

You’re saying Islam needs a reformation, then. No disagreement here. Don’t forget, though, that even the “post-reformation form” of Christianity is not without its fundamentalists. They’re not all progressive theologians who believe Jesus is sexy and God zapped the dinosaurs to bring in Adam and Eve from another planet.

 

[goinghome]

In sexual ethics, of course, Jesus has it all over Mohammed. The marriage to Aisha is a hideous abomination. Mohammed was unashamed of sex, a “hirsute warrior” type (it's unsurprising, for example, that Andrew Tate has converted to Islam), whereas Jesus was a beautiful celibate with a dim view of lust, for which I don’t think he’s given quite enough credit. The Hebrew tradition is very macho and pro-natalist; the Old Testament is full of references to a man’s seed and loins, and Jesus was uninterested in all that. However, his views on the subject may not’ve been as romantic or philosophical as they were practical: Jesus was an apocalypticist, so sex, marriage, and childbearing were pretty low-priority if the world is nearing its calamitous end. “And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. Pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath. For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now.”

We'd really have to withdraw that unique and much-sought -after J-Dogg sobriquet if he definitely and consistently had, as you say, a dim view of lust - which is disputed, as gash argues.

"M to the Mo" perhaps.

Be careful; don't forget Rushdie's Fat Wah.

"Don't cry for me, gashonthenail," sings Jesus to the tune of Andrew Lloyd Webber. He won't be completely forgotten, and he had a very good run while it lasted. More than anything else he was lucky to have had Paul. Without Paul, Jesus just rots in a criminal's grave and gets forgotten by time, or at best he rates a tiny footnote as a 1st c. Messiah claimant. Don't cry for Paul, either. Paul is possibly the most-read author in all of human history. Not bad for a bald, conflicted, mystical Jew. But you (generic you) have to know when enough is enough. Let Jesus go. He'll be okay. Being seated at the right hand of the Father is probably a pretty good spot.

At least Trump is keeping the flame burning, licensing his name for sales of "God Bless The USA" bibles -

Trump endorses line of Bibles -- after selling shoes, NFTs and more

Trump is promoting the "God Bless the USA Bible," his latest venture in the long list of branded merchandise hroughout his political career -- and before

abcnews.go.com

All societies, writes the French philosopher Rene Girard, are rooted in violence. Such violence has a mimetic dimension, which means that men are fated to mimic the behavior of other men. They like what others like, they desire what others desire. Inevitably, the dynamics of reciprocal imitation lead to disputes and social chaos. However, the human being rejects chaos and cries for the restoration of order; but without being able to get rid of the mimetic desire, one single solution remains to overcome the conflict and to restore peace: The Scapegoat. This need to reestablish peace and avoid social disintegration through the sacrifice Girard called the scapegoat mechanism. The mechanism is the natural unfolding of the mimetic desire; one completing the other and forming a cycle of slaughter and violence that has enslaved humanity since the beginning of time.

There is no reason why someone is chosen to be a scapegoat beyond the immediate imperative to restore order. Once the mimetic process pushes a society to the height of the disturbance, the mechanism of bloody pacification begins to work. In the first step, a person is identified as guilty for causing chaos, and all are sure of his guilt. He, then, must be sacrificed to restore social peace, and the mimetic behavior returns in the form of mob action. Once the sacrifice is completed, the social animus returns to normal, and the one – once considered guilty by the crowd – is raised to the plateau of deity. Then the cycle begins once more.

The anthropological experience of mimetism and the scapegoat mechanism, according to Girard, is a constant in every society. There is no social group that, once organized, does not go through the experience of sacred violence. One exemption remains, however. The biblical narrative about the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ represents a rupture of the anthropological structure by which societies seek to maintain their inner stability. In offering himself for sacrifice, Christ effectively destroys the structure of social control that demands human sacrifice.

In I See Satan Fall as a Lightning, Girard achieves one of the greatest advances in the social sciences in our generation by differentiating archaic myths and biblical texts. He compares biblical texts and myths pointing out the similarities between the two and then highlights the main difference between myth and Christianity. In his book, Girard shows that the interpretation of biblical and Christian texts as myths was a mistake of antireligious ethnologists from the turn of the late 19th century who did not have a clear definition of myth.

While both the scriptures and the myths show the working of the cycle of violence, only the biblical account reveals the true nature of the pre-Christian anthropological experience. The mimetic victim, Jesus Christ, is known to be innocent of the crimes for which he is accused and all the characters involved in the report are aware of this. For the first time, a narrative presents one that should reverse social disintegration through the atonement of mutual hatred as innocent.

From Girard’s perspective, the myth is malignant because it reverses the roles of the mimetic victim and her tormentor. The Gospels, on the contrary, represent the truth insofar as they show the victim as a victim and the tormentor as a tormentor. By placing each one in their proper place, Christ’s sacrifice raises the veil and reveals the perverse structure of control played by the mimetic violence, which is to say that Jesus defeats the devil-accuser in the Book of Job and in the Gospel of Saint John.

In the last years of his life, Girard observed how modern culture became increasingly alienated from the anthropological experience of the sacrifice of Christ. To the extent that the Gospels cease to be the ethic-moral basis of Western Civilization, the return of the devil-accuser becomes inevitable. In the Mount of Olives (Gethsemane), Jesus takes upon himself all the evil in the world and accepts death to reveal “things hidden since the creation of the world.” Modern man no longer understands the role of sacrifice and seeks only pleasure in the Epicurus’ Garden of Delights.

- https://rlo.acton.org/archives/1081...capegoat-myth-a-girardian-interpretation.html

Felix Pasche

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Christ is risen!

 

[nicky wire's legs]

Christ is risen!

BOOYAH!

 

[gashonthenail]

Indonesia is a Muslim-majority country and doesn’t have a state religion.



You’re saying Islam needs a reformation, then. No disagreement here. Don’t forget, though, that even the “post-reformation form” of Christianity is not without its fundamentalists. They’re not all progressive theologians who believe Jesus is sexy and God zapped the dinosaurs to bring in Adam and Eve from another planet.

Indonesia was a military dictatorship until 1968. The USA and US investment was probably the main factor in President Suharto's 'New Order' starting in 1968 that developed democracy in Indonesia. But political Islam remains a major player in the public arena, same goes for Malaysia. Malaysia, of course, owes its parliamentary democratic government to the heritage of the British Empire. Sharia law is applied in many parts of both Indonesia and Malaysia. There is little doubt that political Islam will soon be seen in Europe.

Indonesia is officially a presidential republic and a unitary state without an established state religion. Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population and the first principle of Indonesia's philosophical foundation, Pancasila, requires its citizens to state the belief in "the one and almighty God". Although, as explained by the Constitutional Court, this first sila of Pancasila is an explicit recognition of divine substances (i.e. divine providence) and meant as a principle on how to live together in a religiously diverse society. However, blasphemy is a punishable offence (since 1965) and the Indonesian government has a discriminatory attitude towards its numerous tribal religions, atheist and agnostic citizens. In addition, the Aceh province officially applies Sharia law and is notorious for its discriminatory practices towards religious and sexual minorities. There are also Islamic fundamentalist movements in several parts of the country with overwhelming Muslim majorities.

Religion in Indonesia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Indonesia was a military dictatorship until 1968. The USA and US investment was probably the main factor in President Suharto's 'New Order' starting in 1968 that developed democracy in Indonesia. But political Islam remains a major player in the public arena, same goes for Malaysia. Malaysia, of course, owes its parliamentary democratic government to the heritage of the British Empire. Sharia law is applied in many parts of both Indonesia and Malaysia.

I was merely replying to the assertion that separation of religion and state are "unthinkable" in a Muslim country. That Indonesia has blasphemy laws is simply its democracy in action. Isn't "democracy" one of the prime defenses of Israel? Look at us here in the US, where separation of church and state are in the constitution. That doesn't mean the Christian voting bloc has no influence in policy. According to Anthony Burgess, the Islam of Malaya in the 1950s was a "temperate" variety, many harams were blithely ignored, and he even considered converting.

There is little doubt that political Islam will soon be seen in Europe.

Well, that's going to be for the better, isn't it? All these Jordan Petersons, Douglas Murrays, and Ayaan Hirsi Alis are telling us secularism can't cut it, and we need religion in order to have order and moral clarity and meaning in life. They're also saying it's Jesus-religion in particular, but that's been tried and found wanting. You Europeans had Jesus; apparently he wasn't sufficient to keep things together because you decided you had had enough of him, and apostatized. It seems you require a stricter master. So you will get Allah. Praise be to Allah!

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

have you ever wondered what the connection
is between Jesus and bunnies?

 

[Malarkey]

Muslim-majority countries with secular legal systems include Tunisia, Azerbaijan, Albania, and Senegal.

Islamic Legal Systems | Judiciaries Worldwide

judiciariesworldwide.fjc.gov

 

[Malarkey]

 

[nicky wire's legs]

I was merely replying to the assertion that separation of religion and state are "unthinkable" in a Muslim country. That Indonesia has blasphemy laws is simply its democracy in action. Isn't "democracy" one of the prime defenses of Israel? Look at us here in the US, where separation of church and state are in the constitution. That doesn't mean the Christian voting bloc has no influence in policy. According to Anthony Burgess, the Islam of Malaya in the 1950s was a "temperate" variety, many harams were blithely ignored, and he even considered converting.



Well, that's going to be for the better, isn't it? All these Jordan Petersons, Douglas Murrays, and Ayaan Hirsi Alis are telling us secularism can't cut it, and we need religion in order to have order and moral clarity and meaning in life. They're also saying it's Jesus-religion in particular, but that's been tried and found wanting. You Europeans had Jesus; apparently he wasn't sufficient to keep things together because you decided you had had enough of him, and apostatized. It seems you require a stricter master. So you will get Allah. Praise be to Allah!

Apparently Christianity WAS sufficient to keep things together. It's no coincidence that society is at its most desperate, uncivilized and insane as Christianity is at its lowest. Of course, that could be due to immigration as well (although it would again be no coincidence that the immigrants are non-christian).

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Apparently Christianity WAS sufficient to keep things together. It's no coincidence that society is at its most desperate, uncivilized and insane as Christianity is at its lowest. Of course, that could be due to immigration as well (although it would again be no coincidence that the immigrants are non-christian).

No, if Christianity had been sufficient to keep things together, Europe would still be Christian. Anyway, you can find society being perfectly desperate, uncivilized, and insane during the Christian era. How about the cat-burning mania in France? How about lonely spinsters and beautiful lesbians being executed for witchcraft? "I watched with glee while your kings and queens | fought for ten decades for the gods they made." Do you seriously want to go back? Blasphemy laws and criminalized homosexuality? Giordano Bruno was put to death for hypothesizing other worlds not unlike the other planet you think Adam and Eve came from. Are Suede and the Manic Street Preachers Christian?

 

[nicky wire's legs]

No, if Christianity had been sufficient to keep things together, Europe would still be Christian. Anyway, you can find society being perfectly desperate, uncivilized, and insane during the Christian era. How about the cat-burning mania in France? How about lonely spinsters and beautiful lesbians being executed for witchcraft? "I watched with glee while your kings and queens | fought for ten decades for the gods they made." Do you seriously want to go back? Blasphemy laws and criminalized homosexuality? Giordano Bruno was put to death for hypothesizing other worlds not unlike the other planet you think Adam and Eve came from. Are Suede and the Manic Street Preachers Christian?

Those are all extremely examples, and not worthy of a response.

It is only in the aftermath of Christianity that people are realizing what society lost when it lost religion. That's why you have a lot of people readopting Christianity as cultural christians.

 

[gashonthenail]

I was merely replying to the assertion that separation of religion and state are "unthinkable" in a Muslim country. That Indonesia has blasphemy laws is simply its democracy in action. Isn't "democracy" one of the prime defenses of Israel? Look at us here in the US, where separation of church and state are in the constitution. That doesn't mean the Christian voting bloc has no influence in policy. According to Anthony Burgess, the Islam of Malaya in the 1950s was a "temperate" variety, many harams were blithely ignored, and he even considered converting.



Well, that's going to be for the better, isn't it? All these Jordan Petersons, Douglas Murrays, and Ayaan Hirsi Alis are telling us secularism can't cut it, and we need religion in order to have order and moral clarity and meaning in life. They're also saying it's Jesus-religion in particular, but that's been tried and found wanting. You Europeans had Jesus; apparently he wasn't sufficient to keep things together because you decided you had had enough of him, and apostatized. It seems you require a stricter master. So you will get Allah. Praise be to Allah!

Of course religion and religious sensibilities 'influence' politics and policy in all countries. Even China, officially an atheist state, banned a book titled "Xing Fengsu" ("Sexual Customs"), which had allegedly insulted Islam, and placed its authors under arrest, after protests in Lanzhou and Beijing by Chinese Hui Muslims, during which the Chinese police provided protection to the Hui Muslim protestors, and the Chinese government organized public burnings of the book. The Hui do not have a separatist movement, unlike the Uyghurs.
Yes religion has an influence in all countries - but be grateful, Aubs, that you live in a country with something so precious as the 1st amendment. Derived from the enlightenment of Europe. Be careful that your desire to irritate the evangelicals does not blind you to the real enemy - the totalitarian mindset. That is the common enemy that we should all be fighting...and if you don't know this, then what do you know?

 

[gashonthenail]

Muslim-majority countries with secular legal systems include Tunisia, Azerbaijan, Albania, and Senegal.

Islamic Legal Systems | Judiciaries Worldwide

judiciariesworldwide.fjc.gov

Not great examples.

Atheists and religious minorities are banned from the presidency, which is constitutionally restricted to those who hold “Tunisian nationality since birth” and “whose religion is Islam” (Article 74). In these terms there is little improvement over the 1959 constitution, which made similar stipulations.

Tunisia - Freedom of Thought Report

Download this country entry as a PDFTunisia has a population of 11.8 Million, of which approximately 99% are Sunni Muslims. The remaining 1% comprises of small Christian, Jewish, Shiite and Baha’i communities. In 2011, Tunisia set in motion the transnational pro-democracy uprising known as the...

fot.humanists.international

In Senegal, homosexuality is illegal. According to 2013 survey by the Pew Research Center, 96% of Senegalese believe that homosexuality should not be accepted by society. In Azerbaijan, although homosexuality is legal, repression of gay people is common.

These are not examples of modern secular democracies.

Albania is just over 50% Muslim so no doubt its secular constitution owes a huge debt to its European cultural heritage. Not to Islam.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Those are all extremely examples, and not worthy of a response.

It is only in the aftermath of Christianity that people are realizing what society lost when it lost religion. That's why you have a lot of people readopting Christianity as cultural christians.

I don’t know why you consider them “extreme examples.” The king himself attended cat burnings; it’s not like it was just a half-dozen toothless yahus in a peasant village. Blasphemy laws and criminalized homosexuality were the norm. Some of the punishments were indeed extreme (see: the case of a teenaged rent boy from 14th c. Florence), but the notion that buggery was an offense to God was absolutely common. The reason for this is because it’s in the bible. Curiously, “cultural Christians” never want to revive this aspect of the culture.

 

[Lucifer Sam]

Be careful that your desire to irritate the evangelicals does not blind you to the real enemy - the totalitarian mindset.

Likewise, be careful not to think that the totalitarian mindset is the only enemy. To the countless millions of innocents bombed and killed by American forces in the past century, it doesn't matter that America is a “democracy.” Nor does Israel being a democracy absolve it either.