The God Squad- Religion obsessives and philosophical types unite!

I don't like the "god hates fags" people any more than you do.

On the question of "terrorizing children with threats of hellfire": like you I find that sort of thing abominable. I don't advocate it.

Would I want such teaching going on in my dream-world civilization? Of course not.

Do I think the preaching of hellfire is a serious problem among the billions of religious believers in the world? No, it isn't. I assume you must think human beings are born as savage animals but do possess innate reasoning ability. That's basically what I think. Seems like a standard belief in our civilization after the Enlightenment. And because I believe that, I also believe that the majority of religious believers grow up to be rational beings who do not take the many supernatural elements of their religions literally. Some probably continue to believe it; some choose not to believe it; others grow to understand that ideas of "hell" can be read non-literally, just as, for example, the idea of "rebirth" in the New Testament is not taken literally; and, above, all, if they remain believers, they will likely focus on all the positive, life-affirming aspects of their religion.

I mean, you do realize, don't you, that the vast majority of believers are aware of the contradictions in the Bible and know that it was written by flawed men, right? This is not a secret which atheists have discovered. Any true religious believer would laugh at the idea that the Bible is the genuine word of God, to be read literally, just as they would be horrified if Christ's DNA were discovered in a buried scrap of cloth in Jerusalem. It is true among all the major religions that anyone who believes must also struggle, perhaps for a lifetime, with the interpretation of scripture and the proper way to live her life.

(I say "all major religions", but the form of Christianity which has become prominent in the United States is...a problem.)

But I think your question is also asking if I find people who take their kids to church to listen to sermons which talk about hell are "reasonable". Another way to respond to this is to go back to my earlier point: who among us is reasonable? Who among us is free of illusion?

You wouldn't teach your daughter about hell. Tell me, what would you say when she asks you what love is?

Talking about hell, devils, and even Jesus and his "crew" is interesting, already from a broadly cultural-historic-artistic point of view (I can't do without when I marvel at Caravaggio's work, or Michelangelo's Last Judgement).

It's another matter entirely to teach children that they have to sleep on their right side because otherwise the devil will enter through their ear, or that they have to lie down on their right side, or else they'll go to hell if they die in their sleep...
 
It's another matter entirely to teach children that they have to sleep on their right side because otherwise the devil will enter through their ear, or that they have to lie down on their right side, or else they'll go to hell if they die in their sleep...

Agreed.

Far better to let children grow up believing in nothing, as we now do, than force them to believe in devils and lakes of hellfire. Why scare them with ideas about hell in the next life when they can build themselves a hell in this one? :rolleyes:
 
I don't like the "god hates fags" people any more than you do.

You mean you seriously don't like them?

I love those people!

I keep checking their schedule on their website because I'd love to see them on the street.

How can you possibly watch the "Santa Claus will take you to hell" video and not love them?
 
Today I got a pamphlet from a kindly lady informing me of "Fact No. 5": "If you do not repent your sin and do not believe in Jesus Christ, you must go to Hell, the lake of burning fire and sulfur eternally". Yes, but would I pass "Go" on the way?

The paper was a list of Biblical quotations, all of that nature, taken from John, Romans, Jeremiah, Revelation, Matthew, etc. Toward the bottom the pamphlet quotes Acts 1:9: "The Ascension of Jesus Christ, our Lord, was as physical as the ascension of the Apollo rocket into the sky and disappearing beyond the clouds".

I didn't know the Apollo rocket made it into the Bible. I wonder if they also knew about things like aspartame, Justin Beiber, and plasma TVs. I'll have to go home and check my Bible.

What really interests me is the description of the Apollo rocket "disappearing beyond the clouds". The rocket did not disappear, of course. The rocket escaped our field of vision. It made its way up to the moon. Part of it came back after its mission. But there's something oddly accurate about the description: to a casual observer on the ground Apollo did, in fact, seem to "disappear" above the clouds. Is this a conscientious application of empiricism ( :) ) or do fire and brimstone Christians have something in common with the faked moon landing nuts?
 
You mean you seriously don't like them?

I love those people!

I keep checking their schedule on their website because I'd love to see them on the street.

How can you possibly watch the "Santa Claus will take you to hell" video and not love them?

I love them for their cultural contributions, sure! If only we could trap their influence inside YouTube forever, where it can only produce laughter.

I love them more for their hypocrisy. :rolleyes:

Former Bush campaign director Ken Mehlman comes out as gay (Story)

The same-sex marriage debate is producing some interesting consequences - Ken Melhman, former chair of the Republican National Committee and leader of the 2004 Bush-Cheney re-election campaign, has come out as gay and as a supporter of same-sex marriage in an interview with the Atlantic.
 
... and I think to myself - what a wonderful world.

I'm afraid that one of the joint composers of said tune, George David Weiss, was recycled just this week - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_David_Weiss

...Well I remember Oxford (and Oscar's room at Magdalen), and often have I marveled at Sir Christopher Wren's magnificent examples of frozen music. There is a divinity there, from the insides of their heads, through pen, paper and stone, to the insides of our own.

In any event, I cast my lot with the empiricists: I was born that way, and I'll die that way - no doubt about it.

"..Lucian Holland (born 1979), is the only great-grandchild of Oscar Wilde. Lucian lives in Oxford, England where he studied classics at Magdalen College, and is a computer programmer. Both were present at the unveiling of a statue commemorating their famous ancestor. Lucian was given rooms in Magdalen College which Wilde had once occupied" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_Holland :)

The city of dreaming spires provided stability for students to explore and discover. It was the port from which they sailed. All's changed, changed utterly, back on dry land. :eek:

Still: "Most scientists and philosophers assume consciousness emerges from complex computation among brain neurons and synapses acting as indivisible bits, or information states. Penrose and I suggest that consciousness involves processes at deeper levels, specifically sequences of quantum computations (~40 per second) in structures called microtubules inside brain neurons. The quantum computations we propose link to neuronal-level activities, and are also ripples in fundamental spacetime geometry, the most basic level of the universe.

One implication of our model relates to a possible scientific basis for secular spirituality..." - http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/skunk.htm

Developing ethics for our brave new world of extreme technological potential to effect life for better or worse is another quagmire - http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=921 , and http://www.int-res.com/articles/esep/2002/article2.pdf , which states that "Successful implementation of the quest for sustainable use of the planet requires that human society both reexamine and expand present views of what is sacred and what is not. The most important aspect will be going beyond a homocentric focus to a biocentric emphasis. A unifying theme would be the desire to leave a habitable planet for human descendants and those of other species.

It is unlikely that society can be confident of achieving sustainability until persuasive evidence supporting this belief has existed for several generations. In order for sustainable use of the planet to persist indefinitely, the conditions essential to this state must be morally preserved on sacred grounds. Viewing natural systems as sacred requires not only preventing damage to them but, wherever possible, repairing damage to them caused by humankind..."

...
Two stories up from the main floor, Peter Colley, 23, churns away on one of the several dozen elliptical machines without a TV. Instead, they are bathed in sunlight, looking out onto the pool and palm trees.

“I look at the wind on the trees. I watch the swimmers go back and forth,” Mr. Colley said. “I usually come here to clear my head.”​

No God there. But maybe something like a prayer-break or meditation.

Am I reaching? Before you clobber me, ask yourself whether or not anyone is bothering to pose such questions in their rush to roll out newer and newer technologies and sell more and more products to consumers. I humbly suggest to you that they are not, and this wonderful new religion-free world of ours is not going to look very pretty...

"Who among philosophers was a psychologist at all before me, and not rather the opposite, a "higher swindler" and "idealist"? There was no psychology at all before me."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche, "Ecce Homo"
:)

What about the Pali Canon, the 1st records of Buddha's teachings, called the Tipitaka (3 baskets), written in Ceylon on palm leaves stored in baskets, and with subsequent commentaries, valued so highly that they were inscribed on gold tablets, and housed and protected in a great temple?
http://home.primusonline.com.au/peony/fifty_verses.htm

As our alchemical aerating composter, it may jibe with you. You may wish to employ a suitable soundtrack while reading them - http://www.mindfulnessdc.org/mindfulclock.html :)

Talking about hell, devils, and even Jesus and his "crew" is interesting... It's another matter entirely to teach children that they have to sleep on their right side because otherwise the devil will enter through their ear, or that they have to lie down on their right side, or else they'll go to hell if they die in their sleep...

Agreed.

Far better to let children grow up believing in nothing, as we now do, than force them to believe in devils and lakes of hellfire. Why scare them with ideas about hell in the next life when they can build themselves a hell in this one? :rolleyes:

Hell is a universal theme in conceiving of life realms but ideas are easily abused, and ultimately not what heaven/nirvana is about. Balzac wrote a story called 'The Atheist's Mass' which interweaves the strands of belief and action, and reminds that religion has often inspired selfless generosity towards the marginalised and hopeless - http://www.classicreader.com/book/2708/1/ .

There is suffering; this fashion that everyone's responsible for their own - it's not entirely true, is it? That's where Morrissey comes in: life can be an ordeal, let's be compassionate. Sometimes anyway. :)
 
What about the Pali Canon, the 1st records of Buddha's teachings, called the Tipitaka (3 baskets), written in Ceylon on palm leaves stored in baskets, and with subsequent commentaries, valued so highly that they were inscribed on gold tablets, and housed and protected in a great temple?
http://home.primusonline.com.au/peony/fifty_verses.htm

As our alchemical aerating composter, it may jibe with you. You may wish to employ a suitable soundtrack while reading them - http://www.mindfulnessdc.org/mindfulclock.html :)

There is suffering; this fashion that everyone's responsible for their own - it's not entirely true, is it? That's where Morrissey comes in: life can be an ordeal, let's be compassionate. Sometimes anyway. :)

Thanks for the interesting links! :guitar:

Regarding compassion: just about everyone more or less agrees with the ideas that compassion is important and suffering should be alleviated. Everyone wants peace, justice, and security. The question is how to form a state/society upon principles which can allow for a strong collective embrace of these important ideas. The secular West is, at present, various loose collections of individuals who support these ideals on their own. Whether they can mobilize in solidarity to protect these ideals is being tested at the moment. The results so far are interesting. Remember when it was said the United States in its open, diverse, individual-oriented society was actually stronger than closed, homogenous, totalitarian states? Does anyone believe that after the Cordoba House controversy?
 
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Thanks for the interesting links! :guitar:

Regarding compassion: just about everyone more or less agrees with the ideas that compassion is important and suffering should be alleviated. Everyone wants peace, justice, and security. The question is how to form a state/society upon principles which can allow for a strong collective embrace of these important ideas. The secular West is, at present, various loose collections of individuals who support these ideals on their own. Whether they can mobilize in solidarity to protect these ideals is being tested at the moment. The results so far are interesting. Remember when it was said the United States in its open, diverse, individual-oriented society was actually stronger than closed, homogenous, totalitarian states? Does anyone believe that after the Cordoba House controversy?

Are you thinking of something like Ken Wilber's proposals (though he puts it in almost militaristic power terms here)? - http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/show/643

Yesterday The Guardian printed a report of their interview with Thich Nhat Hanh during his recent UK visit, which I've just come across and which is somewhat pertinant to our discussion -

"...In his only interview in the UK, Thay calls on journalists to play their part in preventing the destruction of our civilisation and calls on corporations to move away from their focus on profits to the wellbeing of society.

He says that it is an ill-conceived idea that the solution to global warming lies in technological advances. While science is important, even more so is dealing with the root cause of our destructive behaviour: "The spiritual crisis of the West is the cause for the many sufferings we encounter. Because of our dualistic thinking that god and the kingdom of god is outside of us and in the future - we don't know that god's true nature is in every one of us. So we need to put god back into the right place, within ourselves. It is like when the wave knows that water is not outside of her.

"Everything we touch in our daily lives, including our body, is a miracle. By putting the kingdom of god in the right place, it shows us it is possible to live happily right here, right now. If we wake up to this, we do not have to run after the things we believe are crucial to our happiness like fame, power and sex. If we stop creating despair and anger, we make the atmosphere healthy again.

"Maybe we have enough technology to save the planet but it is not enough because the people are not ready. This is why we need to focus on the other side of the problem, the pollution of the environment not in terms of carbon dioxide but the toxic atmosphere in which we live; so many people getting sick, many children facing violence and despair and committing suicide..." - http://www.guardian.co.uk/sustainability/environment-zen-buddhism-sustainability
 
Are you thinking of something like Ken Wilber's proposals (though he puts it in almost militaristic power terms here)? - http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/show/643

I couldn't access the content but it sounds roughly like what I'm talking about. However, the word "metanarrative" scares me a little, as it often does. :)

Thich Nhat Hanh's comments are more like what I meant. Change has to begin with the man in the mirror (all praise to Michael Jackson), but it has to begin at the deepest, most fundamental level, perhaps even beneath consciousness (sorry Michael). A new and improved advertising campaign isn't going to cut it. Knowledge is impotent.
 
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Knowledge is impotent.

Right! Because knowledge is not meaning. And Kierkegaard blah, blah, blah, Cardinal John Newman, etc. It's much too beautiful a day to hoist my post count, so I'm going pond yachting. :)

Ken Wilber is scary.
 
I've had my issues with Christopher Hitchens over the years, but this is a wonderful exchange. The first part is a blog post from a Christianist who says:

"Who else feels Christopher Hitchens getting terminal throat cancer [sic] was God’s revenge for him using his voice to blaspheme him? Atheists like to ignore FACTS. They like to act like everything is a “coincidence”. Really? It’s just a “coincidence” [that] out of any part of his body, Christopher Hitchens got cancer in the one part of his body he used for blasphemy? Yea, keep believing that Atheists. He’s going to writhe in agony and pain and wither away to nothing and then die a horrible agonizing death, and THEN comes the real fun, when he’s sent to HELLFIRE forever to be tortured and set afire."

This is Christopher Hitchens reply:

"There are numerous passages in holy scripture and religious tradition that for centuries made this kind of gloating into a mainstream belief. Long before it concerned me particularly I had understood the obvious objections. First, which mere primate is so damn sure that he can know the mind of god? Second, would this anonymous author want his views to be read by my unoffending children, who are also being given a hard time in their way, and by the same god? Third, why not a thunderbolt for yours truly, or something similarly awe-inspiring? The vengeful deity has a sadly depleted arsenal if all he can think of is exactly the cancer that my age and former “lifestyle” would suggest that I got. Fourth, why cancer at all? Almost all men get cancer of the prostate if they live long enough: it’s an undignified thing but quite evenly distributed among saints and sinners, believers and unbelievers. If you maintain that god awards the appropriate cancers, you must also account for the numbers of infants who contract leukemia. Devout persons have died young and in pain. Bertrand Russell and Voltaire, by contrast, remained spry until the end, as many psychopathic criminals and tyrants have also done. These visitations, then, seem awfully random. While my so far uncancerous throat, let me rush to assure my Christian correspondent above, is not at all the only organ with which I have blasphemed …And even if my voice goes before I do, I shall continue to write polemics against religious delusions, at least until it’s hello darkness my old friend. In which case, why not cancer of the brain? As a terrified, half-aware imbecile, I might even scream for a priest at the close of business, though I hereby state while I am still lucid that the entity thus humiliating itself would not in fact be “me.” (Bear this in mind, in case of any later rumors or fabrications.)"

As an atheist and a survivor myself, this moves me to the core. Sure, he's picking off the low-hanging fruit of "godly" ignorance and hatred, but it's still a great way to answer his most vitriolic "godly" critics, some of whom will participate in the September 20th "Pray for Christopher Hitchens Day" out of pure spite.
 
Swedish singer Carola during a service in a pentecostalian church in Sweden sometime around 1991. :thumb:

 
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This is a facet of religion I'm all wrapped up in now. It's an excerpt from The Tower of Alchemy by David Goddard. You should read it if you really want to know what's going on. It's kinda long but worth it.

The Anointed

In Qabalah, the place of the Messiah is the place where the three Upper Worlds meet. It is the Kether of Yetzirah (full psychological integration), the Tiphareth of Briah (spiritual maturation), and the Malkuth of Briah (the Presence of the Divine) which is the Shekinah, the Co-habitating Glory. [Amie's note: it is the Shekinah that "haunts" Morrissey, that he laments and embraces in his songs.] Messiah is Hebrew for "the Annointed"; the Greek noun is Christos, for "one upon whom all Grace rests." The role of the Messiah is a function in the universe and in evolution, not a personality. The role is filled at various times by different Illumined Ones, in the same way that the office of the ruler of a Masonic Lodge is filled by different brethren over the course of time. Any of the Sages who have filled this role provide a valid means of contact with this spiritual level, since, ultimately, they are but living symbols of the reality itself. THe reality is the attainment of the consciousness expressed as "I and my Father are One." Alchemical prints and tales delight in the story of the Son and the Father, seperated and then, re-united into one being. THe Hebrew name for the Philosopher's Stone is Aben, a word that combines the words Ab, "father" (Chokmah), with Ben, "son" (Tiphareth). Ab and Ben are also the "hidden" names of Atziluth and Assiah. This is an intimation that the Great Work, willed by the Absolute, is the manifestation of a physical body that is capable of manifesting the Divine Glory, a solar body that is the alchemical Gold and the rainbow body that is a prism for Clear Light.

Arguments and disputes about the various incumbents of this office of Messiah -- the sectarian intolerance that has plagued humankind for so long -- have no place in the Royal Art. They indicate a spiritual immaturity that reveals an unfitness for the Work of Unification.

In Hinduism, individuals who display this type of spiritual immaturity -- an unwillingness to give honor to anyone's God's but their own -- are called Pashu (from the root Pash menaing "bound.") Such people are ignorant of the larger reality, the all-encompassing unity of the Absolute. THey have a tendency towards obscurantism and actually practice a type of idolatry towards what is ultimately just "form" and "name." THey can easily be identified as they tend to speak contemptuously of religious faiths and practices other than their own. Superior to the Pashu's are the Viras ("heroes"), those individuals who acknowledge that spiritual realization, however attained, is the result of interior identification, the union of "I" and "Thou." This mystical truth underlies all symbols and is the goal of every true esoteric ceremony. [Cue "I'll Never Be Anyone's Hero Now.":straightface:]

For Christian Alchemists, Jesus, as the Christ, is seen as one of the master alchemists who has already acheived the Great Work. This is shown by the accounts, given in the gospels, of his healing miracles, his mastery over the forces of nature, his transfiguration upon Mount Tabor, his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension. His esoteric teachings, strongly denied by orthodoxy, are recorded in the gospels, and are clear for any instructed in the "language" of the Mysteries.

Jesus is seen as the embodiment of the corpus glorificatum, the glorious solar body. In this remembrance feast, the Eucharist, (identical to those of Melchizadek, Osiris, and Amitayus), he gives of the red and white substances, alchemically changed (transubstantiation) into channels for his universal consciousness. The theurgic ceremony of the Mass, as Jung held, is the Great alchemical rite of the West. In it, Christ feeds others upon Himself :)mad:), until they are strong enough to walk the Way for themselves. Then, after "being made like unto him," they enter into the presence of the Father's glory.

Alchemists who are not Christians do not deny the attainments of Jesus. His Alchemical achievements are among the best known in the world. Sadly, however, they are percieved as a "great exception" rather than, what they are in fact, a "great example, " a call to the heights.
 
http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx

My result:

1. Neo-Pagan (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (98%)
3. Liberal Quakers (95%)
4. New Age (95%)
5. Secular Humanism (82%)
6. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (81%)
7. Mahayana Buddhism (81%)
8. Theravada Buddhism (81%)
9. New Thought (73%)
10. Taoism (72%)
11. Scientology (69%)
12. Reform Judaism (62%)
13. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (58%)
14. Nontheist (54%)
15. Baha'i Faith (50%)
16. Jainism (41%)
17. Orthodox Quaker (41%)
18. Sikhism (36%)
19. Hinduism (34%)
20. Orthodox Judaism (26%)
21. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (19%)
22. Islam (18%)
23. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (12%)
24. Eastern Orthodox (12%)
25. Roman Catholic (12%)
26. Seventh Day Adventist (9%)
27. Jehovah's Witness (8%)
 
About a month old and a bad translation, but still.

e.jpg


Today is an important day for many Sikhs. It celebrates the fact their holy book, Guru Granth Sahib, which roughly translated means "Guru-book".

The book was completed by the tenth and last Sikh guru, Guru Gobind Singh, who also gave it the special status it has today. Guru Gobind Singh appointed is no eleventh guru to succeed, but argued instead that the book would be seen as a kind of guru or spiritual teacher. It is this appointment that is celebrated today. The book in question is about 2,000 pages long (which is about as wide as the Bible) and contains words of wisdom from many Sikh gurus, but also from other holy men, such as Muslim mystics - sufi.

A copy of this book is available in every Gurudwara (Sikh temple). In larger temples you read it from morning to night and visitors can come and go during the day. When the book is seen as a kind of guru, it is of utmost importance how it is treated. Every night embeds the thus reduced to a small four-poster bed. The idea of treating religious writings with respect and reverence, we find in other religions. It should for instance never put the Koran on the floor and many Muslims wash their hands before they start reading from it.
 
Blessed Be! Hallelujah! Mazel tov! The Druids are now officially recognized as a religion in Britain:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...F8O9TMlsnYqW0a5Wm8qgD9IJO1B00?docId=D9IJO1B00

"The ancient pagan tradition best known for gatherings at Stonehenge every summer solstice has been formally classed as a religion under charity law for the first time in Britain, the national charity regulator said Saturday. That means Druids can receive exemptions from taxes on donations — and now have the same status as such mainstream religions as the Church of England."

EDIT: Obligatory Spinal Tap reference:

 
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Just did this. My result...

1. Neo-Pagan (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (97%)
3. New Age (84%)
4. Theravada Buddhism (82%)
5. Liberal Quakers (76%)
6. Secular Humanism (76%)
7. Mahayana Buddhism (73%)
8. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (60%)
9. New Thought (58%)
10. Taoism (57%)
11. Scientology (55%)
12. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (49%)
13. Reform Judaism (49%)
14. Nontheist (46%)
15. Sikhism (44%)
16. Hinduism (42%)
17. Orthodox Quaker (41%)
18. Jainism (37%)
19. Baha'i Faith (36%)
20. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (22%)
21. Orthodox Judaism (22%)
22. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (15%)
23. Jehovah's Witness (13%)
24. Seventh Day Adventist (13%)
25. Eastern Orthodox (11%)
26. Islam (11%)
27. Roman Catholic (11%)

Blessed Be! Hallelujah! Mazel tov! The Druids are now officially recognized as a religion in Britain:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...F8O9TMlsnYqW0a5Wm8qgD9IJO1B00?docId=D9IJO1B00

"The ancient pagan tradition best known for gatherings at Stonehenge every summer solstice has been formally classed as a religion under charity law for the first time in Britain, the national charity regulator said Saturday. That means Druids can receive exemptions from taxes on donations — and now have the same status as such mainstream religions as the Church of England."

EDIT: obligatory Spinal Tap reference: [youtube]T7wcyLrPqC4&feature=fvw[/youtube]

I heard this on the radio earlier today. Fantastic news indeed. :thumb:
 
1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (97%)
3. Liberal Quakers (84%)
4. Neo-Pagan (77%)
5. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (70%)
6. Nontheist (70%)
7. Theravada Buddhism (69%)
8. New Age (69%)
9. Reform Judaism (59%)
10. Taoism (59%)
11. Mahayana Buddhism (55%)
12. Scientology (52%)
13. New Thought (50%)
14. Orthodox Quaker (48%)
15. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (42%)
16. Baha'i Faith (40%)
17. Sikhism (36%)
18. Jainism (30%)
19. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (26%)
20. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (26%)
21. Islam (25%)
22. Orthodox Judaism (25%)
23. Hinduism (18%)
24. Eastern Orthodox (16%)
25. Roman Catholic (16%)
26. Seventh Day Adventist (16%)
27. Jehovah's Witness (8%)
 
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