The Smiths abortive attempt to continue (1987)

[js138]

Your understanding aligns quite closely with Morrissey's version - he felt that Johnny was surrounded by undesirable friends who wanted to lure him away to greater things. Ultimately though, I don't see much evidence for that. Johnny did try to tell M and the others how tired and stressed he was (the chip shop summit?) - M even recalls this in The Importance... documentary and says "I didn't think he meant it". Then Moz, cluelessly, suggested they go on holiday to France. They just didn't want to hear it, and when people are not listening because they don't want to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs, what can you do?

Johnny's post-Smiths career doesn't fit the bill of someone who was looking for greater things - if anything he shrank away from his legacy and buried himself in other bands like he wanted to hide, he has only really stepped out on his own in the last 10 years. I agree that the power dynamic shifted but I think that is a 'scapegoat issue', it's made into a bigger thing than it was. Ultimately, Johnny hand-picked Morrissey to be the leader, and he's played second fiddle to a lot of lesser lights since then without any complaints. I think the Johnny F-ing Marr thing is JM trying to compensate for those years when people thought he was just wasting himself, he's a man on a mission.

Maybe I am hazy on this, but I don't know if its so much that Johnny made a concious and official decision for Morrissey to be the "leader" more so than it was two kids who had no real confidence yet, collaborating, and things played out simply as they did.

For what its worth, Johnny never actually played second fiddle to anybody, it was just the music press and fans smitten for Morrissey's voice and wit. He's had no further complaints of this nature because the praise for his later projects hasn't been as one sided. Or simply, he's realized his place in the pecking order of things. A small bout of irrelvancy can do that.

As far as my views aligning with Morrissey's, I made no mention of friends or M's comments, just what I took away from his book.

At the end of the day, Marr's a great song writer. Zero doubt. But ultimately, the what if's wether it be with Bernard Sumner, Matt Johnson, Talking Heads, or Bryan Ferry, played a major role in him abandoning his best project. It becomes obvious early on in his book IMO.

 

[js138]

Your understanding aligns quite closely with Morrissey's version - he felt that Johnny was surrounded by undesirable friends who wanted to lure him away to greater things. Ultimately though, I don't see much evidence for that. Johnny did try to tell M and the others how tired and stressed he was (the chip shop summit?) - M even recalls this in The Importance... documentary and says "I didn't think he meant it". Then Moz, cluelessly, suggested they go on holiday to France. They just didn't want to hear it, and when people are not listening because they don't want to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs, what can you do?

Johnny's post-Smiths career doesn't fit the bill of someone who was looking for greater things - if anything he shrank away from his legacy and buried himself in other bands like he wanted to hide, he has only really stepped out on his own in the last 10 years. I agree that the power dynamic shifted but I think that is a 'scapegoat issue', it's made into a bigger thing than it was. Ultimately, Johnny hand-picked Morrissey to be the leader, and he's played second fiddle to a lot of lesser lights since then without any complaints. I think the Johnny F-ing Marr thing is JM trying to compensate for those years when people thought he was just wasting himself, he's a man on a mission.

Also, what I mean by didnt speak up, was he just wasnt direct enough in what he needed. But hey, you know, that's just being young.

 

[Crisstti]

Thinking if Tony didn’t continually try to belittle Morrissey by referring to him as ‘Steven’, maybe we would have gotten to hear some co-writes with Vini. Morrissey is a fan of Vini’s playing, and seemed to really enjoy Vini’s company during the Viva sessions, so I can only see Tony as the one that made it impossible for Morrissey to continue working with Reilly. That’s not to say, Tony wasn’t trying to do the best for his client. Because he did care for Vini. But Tony claims it was a money issue, I think it was a relationship issue.
M and Tony just never got along.

But also, it’s unfortunate we only have Tony’s side of the story on what supposedly happened.

Yeah, it's good to remember that only Tony Wilson's account of what happened.

Didn't Vini give a different account of it? Something about him and Morrissey not agreeing about the type of record they wanted to make?

 

[Mimi Ramone]

It is, they're ridiculous.
What I also find sad is that after being 'told off', Johnny has pretty much done what M wanted - gone about his own stuff with Glasto and gigs and this upcoming guitar book, tried not to piss him off any more and had quite a positive response to his projects. Whilst Moz, after accusing him of "clickbait" as though he were the real star, has 'lost' his album, lost half his band, started a war with another label exec, had an embarrassing episode on a plane, cancelled more gigs, etc, etc. And he can't turn around and blame Johnny or the media for that, it was him. Endlessly shits on his own doorstep and then looks around to blame someone else.

Yes. I think they both have quite big Egos, which is normal for their profession and often a key to success. But it seems that in the Smiths days they had so much respect for another because they were that "infatuated" with each other. Their "as intimate as possible without being physical" relationship and love for each others talent seemed to keep them in check, because they balanced out each other as total equals. When that dynamic somehow got shifted it all started to go south. I think you're right, Johnny does quite well with going on with his business because he seems to be balanced (through family etc.). Morrissey on the other hand I often think has lost his one and only counterpart. The first and the last one in his professional life who he truly respected as equal and that seems to be a huge problem.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Yeah, it's good to remember that only Tony Wilson's account of what happened.

Didn't Vini give a different account of it? Something about him and Morrissey not agreeing about the type of record they wanted to make?

For VivaH? Vini seems to have just wanted to make it better. I don’t remember any interview of Vini saying he disagreed with Morrissey about the type of record they wanted to make or were making at the time.

I do remember a clip of Vini (which I can’t find) where he briefly mentioned wanting to continue after VivaH and write a whole album with Morrissey, something along the lines of Patti Smith’s ‘Radio Ethiopia’ which he was sure Morrissey was familiar with.

I don’t know if this was simply a desire on Vini’s part, or something that Vini and Morrissey may have actually discussed in private. Seems this may have been a possibility, considering they got on very well.

 

[BurgerButt]

I'd say you don't know much about what Johnny has been doing since the Smiths and probably don't care. He is going to go down in musical history as one of the greatest guitarists that ever lived and that is based on his current live reputation.

Take the Smiths out of Johnny's career though and would be still go down in musical history as one of the greatest guitarists that ever lived????


No

 

[BurgerButt]

who wouldn’t want to hear those Ivor Perry co-writes though!

Supposedly two songs, one a version of Bengali, and the other one?
Does anyone know?

Smiths-guitarist-for-a-day Ivor Perry responds to Stephen Street – SuperDeluxeEdition

superdeluxeedition.com

Hmmm Ivor's comment saying Stephen Street didn't seem that into it...... are we to assume SS was already planning his and Morrissey's solo career collaboration in the background at that point.....

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Hmmm Ivor's comment saying Stephen Street didn't seem that into it......

are we to assume SS was already planning his and Morrissey's solo career collaboration in the background at that point.....

it shouldn’t be ruled out.

 

[stux]

I could be misremembering, but didn't Street say or suggest that it was Rourke and Joyce who didn't want him there?

That’s what I remember too, I think Stephen Street said this in an interview years ago

 

[Crisstti]

Hmmm Ivor's comment saying Stephen Street didn't seem that into it...... are we to assume SS was already planning his and Morrissey's solo career collaboration in the background at that point.....

That seems to be Ivor’s assumption, for sure. Whether he’s right or not is a different matter!

 

[Crisstti]

For VivaH? Vini seems to have just wanted to make it better. I don’t remember any interview of Vini saying he disagreed with Morrissey about the type of record they wanted to make or were making at the time.

No, for after Viva Hate.

I do remember a clip of Vini (which I can’t find) where he briefly mentioned wanting to continue after VivaH and write a whole album with Morrissey, something along the lines of Patti Smith’s ‘Radio Ethiopia’ which he was sure Morrissey was familiar with.

I don’t know if this was simply a desire on Vini’s part, or something that Vini and Morrissey may have actually discussed in private. Seems this may have been a possibility, considering they got on very well.

Must be the same interview I’m thinking of. He said Morrissey just wanted to do Viva Hate part 2 and that he (Vini) wasn’t interested.
It is I believe from the same interview where he claimed he, and not Street, co-wrote Viva Hate.

It’s on YouTube somewhere…

 

[Geoffrey Ingram]

I didn't know that. I thought the farewell gig Johnny was invited to was always Wolverhampton in 1988.

I think Morrissey did the right thing in trying to include him, but it was never likely to succeed. The band broke up because the working relationship broke down and they were no longer on speaking terms. It would have been rather odd if they'd decided to share a stage again for one night only, setting aside the fact that at that point they hated each other's guts.

That said, Mike Joyce was there, despite the fact that he had already begun legal proceedings against Morrissey (and Johnny) at that point. I always found that very peculiar, given how strongly Morrissey holds grudges.

Andy and Craig had also taken legal proceedings along with Mike

 

[Crisstti]

I didn't know that. I thought the farewell gig Johnny was invited to was always Wolverhampton in 1988.

I think Morrissey did the right thing in trying to include him, but it was never likely to succeed. The band broke up because the working relationship broke down and they were no longer on speaking terms. It would have been rather odd if they'd decided to share a stage again for one night only, setting aside the fact that at that point they hated each other's guts.

That said, Mike Joyce was there, despite the fact that he had already begun legal proceedings against Morrissey (and Johnny) at that point. I always found that very peculiar, given how strongly Morrissey holds grudges.

It really is very curious.
Guess everyone, Moz included, didn't expect things to become so acrimonious and just to be settled along the way.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

No, for after Viva Hate.

Must be the same interview I’m thinking of. He said Morrissey just wanted to do Viva Hate part 2 and that he (Vini) wasn’t interested.
It is I believe from the same interview where he claimed he, and not Street, co-wrote Viva Hate.

It’s on YouTube somewhere…

Ok. Yeah it’s up in parts on YouTube, watched them recently, but must have missed that part. Post it, if you happen to come across it.

My fantasty scenario would be …

Viva Hate, singles/Bona Drag, and instead of Kill Uncle … an epic artistic statement created by Morrissey & Vini Reilly!

Soon after, and moving on, he’d write
a few songs with Nevin, releasing ‘I’ve Changed My Plea’ then finally, he would decide to have a band, and his first solo tour would be for ‘Your Arsenal’.

 

[SuedeMoz]

That’s what I remember too, I think Stephen Street said this in an interview years ago

I remember SS saying that the feeling he got from Mike and Andy when they returned to record Interesting Drug and Playboys was "Thanks Steve, but we've got it from here..."

 

[YourArse'n'All]

When I say power play, I mean something like this.
Johnny gets fed up of various issues and does a disappearing act - not really sure of the 'big plan', just wanting to ruffle the others a bit because they're not taking him seriously. Gives them the cold shoulder, makes Moz sweat a bit and contemplate his sins. He did not intend to leave permanently until the NME situation provoked him (so he says).
In the interval, Moz gets tired of the cold shoulder and paranoid about JM's intentions and decides to flex his own muscles - 'right, we're done with waiting, have this!' - probably hoping to provoke Johnny to come to his senses.
End result - both hurt each other pointlessly and stupidly, due to nothing more than ego, paranoia and an inability to talk it out like adults. And the worst of it is that they've never grown up, they're just the same now!

I think this is very likely what went down.

 

[goinghome]

A smart amusing 1988 curio from Smiths Redditers
(This poem is a nice accompaniment, To Leonora. )

 

[Amy]

A smart amusing 1988 curio from Smiths Redditers
(This poem is a nice accompaniment, To Leonora. )

Really enjoyed this. I think we all wonder what it must be like to be famous and escape the drudgery of the 9-5, but here it sounds as boring as any unemployed average Joe - sleeping half the day, watching TV, buying groceries, phoning Mum - just getting to do it all from a huge flat in Primrose Hill. "Living for pleasure in a very stunted way" is a good way to describe it. Maybe he tours so much because he'd be bored as hell otherwise.