A
Anonymous
Guest
Odd to think we nearly got Bernard Butler when Alain left/was forced out of the band in 2004. Instead, we ended up with Jesse. Go figure.
Pokey
Member
I never would have expected this reaction from this question on this website!
On stage I never had a massive problem with him, he's obviously not as good as Alain, but then again Alain isn't as good as a huge number of guitarists out there, none of Morrissey's guitarists have ever been mind blowingly good. Hell even Johnny Marr when playing live wasn't super special, Marr's genius and his strength came from his writing. He is one of the best ever at writing music on guitar, when it comes to recreating what he wrote and performing it live, it isn't exactly impossible. Tobias could do it, not as well as others or Alain could, be he's not as dreadful on stage as some people like to make him out to be, I think he's a scapegoat in a lot of ways for a lot of Morrissey's own short comings.
However, when it comes to writing music, just like I was saying with Marr, I think he's awful in that regard. I really don't care if he tours with Moz or not, but I really wish he'd be dropped as a writing partner. His songs are plodding, dull, uninteresting and uninspiring. And, I guess that sort of then translates to a live performance of those songs, you can't polish a turd etc...
On stage I never had a massive problem with him, he's obviously not as good as Alain, but then again Alain isn't as good as a huge number of guitarists out there, none of Morrissey's guitarists have ever been mind blowingly good. Hell even Johnny Marr when playing live wasn't super special, Marr's genius and his strength came from his writing. He is one of the best ever at writing music on guitar, when it comes to recreating what he wrote and performing it live, it isn't exactly impossible. Tobias could do it, not as well as others or Alain could, be he's not as dreadful on stage as some people like to make him out to be, I think he's a scapegoat in a lot of ways for a lot of Morrissey's own short comings.
However, when it comes to writing music, just like I was saying with Marr, I think he's awful in that regard. I really don't care if he tours with Moz or not, but I really wish he'd be dropped as a writing partner. His songs are plodding, dull, uninteresting and uninspiring. And, I guess that sort of then translates to a live performance of those songs, you can't polish a turd etc...
A
Anonymous
Guest
Maybe Tobias' Mexican heritage is an attraction for Moz?
U
Upstart
Guest
I think it's scary to think he's been with Morrissey 10 years.
I have to confess, when mixed with the Boorer/Whyte/Farrell/Tobias mix of the Ringleader/Years of Refusal era, his songs have their place. I really do love You Have Killed Me, and I'm Okay By Myself is just a really visceral performance that's a great closer to a good album.
However, the prospect of a mainly Jesse composed "World Peace Is None Of Your Business" doesn't fill me with confidence. I'd love to see a bit more craft and guile in the music. I'd be happy with Boz's melodic tracks a la "Christian Dior" and "Action Is My Middle Name," and admittedly Scandinavia is something a little different which is what I'd like to see. I would be really disappointed with 12 plodding "People Are The Same Everywhere" style tracks.
I think it'd be nice if this album had a few experimental tracks on, or at least pushed boundaries. I remember seeing a video interview with Vini Reilly around 2004 and he said that he thought Moz needed to do something different, and I still think that's the case. I'll be very interested to see what happens with the second of the two albums that is on this record deal should the first one get slated or flop. Would Morrissey have a complete fresh start if World Peace Is None Of Your Business isn't well received?
Here's to hoping Jesse has found some songwriting form for this record anyway.
I have to confess, when mixed with the Boorer/Whyte/Farrell/Tobias mix of the Ringleader/Years of Refusal era, his songs have their place. I really do love You Have Killed Me, and I'm Okay By Myself is just a really visceral performance that's a great closer to a good album.
However, the prospect of a mainly Jesse composed "World Peace Is None Of Your Business" doesn't fill me with confidence. I'd love to see a bit more craft and guile in the music. I'd be happy with Boz's melodic tracks a la "Christian Dior" and "Action Is My Middle Name," and admittedly Scandinavia is something a little different which is what I'd like to see. I would be really disappointed with 12 plodding "People Are The Same Everywhere" style tracks.
I think it'd be nice if this album had a few experimental tracks on, or at least pushed boundaries. I remember seeing a video interview with Vini Reilly around 2004 and he said that he thought Moz needed to do something different, and I still think that's the case. I'll be very interested to see what happens with the second of the two albums that is on this record deal should the first one get slated or flop. Would Morrissey have a complete fresh start if World Peace Is None Of Your Business isn't well received?
Here's to hoping Jesse has found some songwriting form for this record anyway.
I have no interest in talking about me.
Thank you for the attention nevertheless.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I feel he's done great! 
But why did he receive a non-vegan cake for his birthday? Sad. I would be pissed if fatsos celebrated my birthday with a low quality cake that I would never touch. In fact, people in offices have done that; their ignorance is unbelievable. Moz said in his book that Jesse does not consume cream or eggs, but he doesn't say Jesse is "vegan." So, is Jesse vegan or does he simply have food allergies that require him to avoid dairy and egg?
Alain terminated his contract with the Moz band and that's what prompted the hiring of Jesse. Good for him. If Alain wasn't so dumb (he puts hair gel in before going to bed and believes Rome was built in a day), he could have simply requested to split his contract with another guitarist if he was really getting burnt out. Instead he hires a lawyer to request that his face be on the cover of Morrissey albums. Huh? Plus, if Alain isn't vegan then he really is dumb.
But why did he receive a non-vegan cake for his birthday? Sad. I would be pissed if fatsos celebrated my birthday with a low quality cake that I would never touch. In fact, people in offices have done that; their ignorance is unbelievable. Moz said in his book that Jesse does not consume cream or eggs, but he doesn't say Jesse is "vegan." So, is Jesse vegan or does he simply have food allergies that require him to avoid dairy and egg?
Alain terminated his contract with the Moz band and that's what prompted the hiring of Jesse. Good for him. If Alain wasn't so dumb (he puts hair gel in before going to bed and believes Rome was built in a day), he could have simply requested to split his contract with another guitarist if he was really getting burnt out. Instead he hires a lawyer to request that his face be on the cover of Morrissey albums. Huh? Plus, if Alain isn't vegan then he really is dumb.
Velvis
Not a beginner
Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
Firstly I'd like to say that I think his guitar playing has become an essential part of the Morrissey Band sound. The solos on the new songs sound fantastic - Istanbul - stunning.
Also the way he tried to look after Moz when the stage invaders were getting out of hand warmed my heart... (this happened a couple of times on the first dates of this tour) you can tell he has a genuine affection for his boss, he was trying to protect him!
Jesse haters it's time to stop the whining and realise that he is a real asset to the Morrissey camp, I'm willing to bet that his guitar will be a brilliant on the new album.
So what do you think folks - time to move on, can we finally give him some leeway and stop comparing him to Alain and Johnny?
Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
Firstly I'd like to say that I think his guitar playing has become an essential part of the Morrissey Band sound. The solos on the new songs sound fantastic - Istanbul - stunning.
Also the way he tried to look after Moz when the stage invaders were getting out of hand warmed my heart... (this happened a couple of times on the first dates of this tour) you can tell he has a genuine affection for his boss, he was trying to protect him!
Jesse haters it's time to stop the whining and realise that he is a real asset to the Morrissey camp, I'm willing to bet that his guitar will be a brilliant on the new album.
So what do you think folks - time to move on, can we finally give him some leeway and stop comparing him to Alain and Johnny?
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Anonymous
Guest
Re: Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
Jesse will never live down stripping This Charming Man down to powerchords.
Jesse will never live down stripping This Charming Man down to powerchords.
Re: Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
It was done like that at Morrissey's request. Gustavo has confirmed this.
It was done like that at Morrissey's request. Gustavo has confirmed this.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
Gustavo wasn't in the band back then.
But you're missing the point. Doing that just sent out the message: "Morrissey used to work with one of the most important guitarists in indie-rock, now he's got someone who needs to put little stickers on his fretboard". That may be a little unfair on Jesse, but I think it put paid to any prospect of him ever being taken seriously as a guitarist.
Let's face it, TCM is a little bit tricky and Jesse probably couldn't get through it live the way it was originally written without f***ing up. Which doesn't make him unique among professional guitarists, but it was a mistake to allow attention to be drawn to the fact.
Gustavo wasn't in the band back then.
But you're missing the point. Doing that just sent out the message: "Morrissey used to work with one of the most important guitarists in indie-rock, now he's got someone who needs to put little stickers on his fretboard". That may be a little unfair on Jesse, but I think it put paid to any prospect of him ever being taken seriously as a guitarist.
Let's face it, TCM is a little bit tricky and Jesse probably couldn't get through it live the way it was originally written without f***ing up. Which doesn't make him unique among professional guitarists, but it was a mistake to allow attention to be drawn to the fact.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
Jesse has upped his game, I'll give you that. He is a perfectly competent guitar player, but I still feel he lacks that inexplicable magic that Moz's former main men possess. In other words, I don't think he is as naturally gifted, BUT I think he knows this and works like hell to try to get there.
The new stuff is his best work yet and I hope it continues. I've met him on two different occasions and he is extraordinarily kind and a lot chattier than I would have guessed. I don't like seeing him slagged off either so I hope he carries on working his ass off until everything he does is beyond reproach -- or as beyond reproach as something as subjective as music can get.
Jesse has upped his game, I'll give you that. He is a perfectly competent guitar player, but I still feel he lacks that inexplicable magic that Moz's former main men possess. In other words, I don't think he is as naturally gifted, BUT I think he knows this and works like hell to try to get there.
The new stuff is his best work yet and I hope it continues. I've met him on two different occasions and he is extraordinarily kind and a lot chattier than I would have guessed. I don't like seeing him slagged off either so I hope he carries on working his ass off until everything he does is beyond reproach -- or as beyond reproach as something as subjective as music can get.
Re: Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
No, but he's played it with Gustavo in the band. And Gustavo has verified it. Obviously someone filled him in — not exactly a stretch of the imagination.
A tellingly uninformed comment: "Let's face it, TCM is a little bit tricky." Marr isn't highly regarded because he could play those songs, he's highly regarded because he wrote them. Anyone who's been playing guitar regularly for even a few years could play "This Charming Man." Jesse has played much more complicated Marr guitar parts. Alain wasn't smart enough to use an alternate tuning to play "The Headmaster Ritual," but he never gets shit for it. I'd say Jesse's not exactly lacking because an anonymous forum poster who can't quite figure out "This Charming Man" doesn't "take him seriously."
No, but he's played it with Gustavo in the band. And Gustavo has verified it. Obviously someone filled him in — not exactly a stretch of the imagination.
A tellingly uninformed comment: "Let's face it, TCM is a little bit tricky." Marr isn't highly regarded because he could play those songs, he's highly regarded because he wrote them. Anyone who's been playing guitar regularly for even a few years could play "This Charming Man." Jesse has played much more complicated Marr guitar parts. Alain wasn't smart enough to use an alternate tuning to play "The Headmaster Ritual," but he never gets shit for it. I'd say Jesse's not exactly lacking because an anonymous forum poster who can't quite figure out "This Charming Man" doesn't "take him seriously."
Just a sec. Jesse clearly isnt as a good on the guitar as alain? Johnny Marr wasnt any good live either. Jesse cant reproduce songs as well as alain and other have?
Come on mate. Jesse is clearly a better guitarist than alain, jesse does a great job reproducing smiths and morrissey stuff, i am not saying jesse is as good a songwriter as alain - alain is a superb songwriter but jesse is the better guitarist.
I dont know where to start with the comment about johnny. Go and listen to the live version of some girls, after 30 years of playing the guitar i can tell you that is some amazing guitar playing.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
You don't know what you're talking about. I don't think I've ever heard Jesse play anything more difficult than TCM. Just playing the intro and keeping it precise without the risk of fluffing is actually not easy. It's not that it requires a virtuoso, but giving the world the impression that he'd just gone "oh f*** it" and reached for the Big Book of Powerchords was not a smart thing to do.
You don't know what you're talking about. I don't think I've ever heard Jesse play anything more difficult than TCM. Just playing the intro and keeping it precise without the risk of fluffing is actually not easy. It's not that it requires a virtuoso, but giving the world the impression that he'd just gone "oh f*** it" and reached for the Big Book of Powerchords was not a smart thing to do.
Re: Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
"You Just Haven't Earned It Yet, Baby" is one example of a more intricate riff than "This Charming Man." "Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others" is another. I've only ever heard the live in Warsaw recording of the former, he seemed to have pulled it off rather well.
Good thing that's not what actually happened, and Morrissey wanted the 2009 rendition structured off of the shitty Death Cab for Cutie cover version. "You don't know what you're talking about." Okay, pal. Keep tinkering on "This Charming Man," maybe one day you'll get it.
"You Just Haven't Earned It Yet, Baby" is one example of a more intricate riff than "This Charming Man." "Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others" is another. I've only ever heard the live in Warsaw recording of the former, he seemed to have pulled it off rather well.
Good thing that's not what actually happened, and Morrissey wanted the 2009 rendition structured off of the shitty Death Cab for Cutie cover version. "You don't know what you're talking about." Okay, pal. Keep tinkering on "This Charming Man," maybe one day you'll get it.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Jesse is not even a vegetarian - he has been seen eating fish in restaurants away from the tour. As with a lot of the band and crew, when Morrissey is around they are all hardcore veggies, but once his back is turned it's a different story.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Jesse Tobias - time to re-evaluate...
I quite like the Warsaw version of YJHEIYB, but on a technical level, Jesse fudges the tricky bits. It's easy to play a difficult guitar part if you don't actually play it. It's a similar story with Some Girls. He plays a simplified version. It's not just a case of him not having to copy Johnny exactly or him having the right to make the song his own. It's just that he misses out some of the notes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6kNYuhdX-U
i don't want to beat up on Jesse too much, because expecting him to live up to anything in particular is not the point, and I think people are wrong about him not being able to write a song. But there's no doubt that he does have his limitations as a guitarist.
That's not the point. Whatever the reason for doing it like that, doing it like that made Jesse look like he was out of his depth with the song.
I quite like the Warsaw version of YJHEIYB, but on a technical level, Jesse fudges the tricky bits. It's easy to play a difficult guitar part if you don't actually play it. It's a similar story with Some Girls. He plays a simplified version. It's not just a case of him not having to copy Johnny exactly or him having the right to make the song his own. It's just that he misses out some of the notes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6kNYuhdX-U
i don't want to beat up on Jesse too much, because expecting him to live up to anything in particular is not the point, and I think people are wrong about him not being able to write a song. But there's no doubt that he does have his limitations as a guitarist.
That's not the point. Whatever the reason for doing it like that, doing it like that made Jesse look like he was out of his depth with the song.
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