"And If George Bush Doesn't Bomb You..."

[Vauxhall95]

"The song itself is offensive to anyone that is for the war in Iraq because it points out that innocent people "dancing around and pulling faces" are dying because of USA, because of George W Bush, however you want to slice it, it's the same thing, for practical purposes."

I always thought the reference to being in front of the camera and pulling faces was to the tapes that Bin Laden and such are always releasing?

I liked your post, very interesting.

Thanks,

-Vaux

 

[JoyDiv007]

Post of the day

Thanks, I would love to hear the changes in Irish Blood, English Heart, would cheer for that one. Both parties suck.

 

[Dave]

Thanks. I'm sorry I got the words wrong, too. It's "messing around". I think this is what he's talking about.

 

[Worm]

Thanks. I'm sorry I got the words wrong, too. It's "messing around". I think this is what he's talking about.

Dave is right. That is both the simplest and most logical reading of the song's line about "pulling faces". I don't even think it's ambiguous or suggestive. It means civilians posing for cameras. Osama bin Laden does not fit Morrissey's "outsider" poetics. Period.

 

[Alcoholic Afternoons]

The lyric changes makes sense in context. GWB instead of USA is more appropriate to sing to US citizens who presumably aren't Bush supporters. The differentiation is more relevant in the US than it is elsewhere. Also, "Republicans and Democrats" is more relevant in the US than "Labour and Tories." When I lived in Southern California and was visiting the East Coast, I'd tell people I lived in "L.A.," because it was easier than explaining that I lived in a suburb X miles from L.A. When I was nearer to home, I'd be more specific about where I lived because it made sense to do so. I think the same thing applies, albeit in a different context.

 

[Vauxhall95]

Dave is right. That is both the simplest and most logical reading of the song's line about "pulling faces". I don't even think it's ambiguous or suggestive. It means civilians posing for cameras. Osama bin Laden does not fit Morrissey's "outsider" poetics. Period.

I respectfully disagree. From word go with ROTT I've always interpreted the song's lyrics in the context of the "war on terrorism." Here are the lyrics for the section in question:

"Destiny for some is to save lives
But destiny for some is to end lives
But there is no end
And I will see you in far off places.

If your god bestows protection upon you
And if the USA doesn't bomb you
I believe I will see you somewhere safe
Looking to the camera, messing around
and pulling faces. "

I've always read the "But destiny for some is to end lives" as the same people who are "...somewhere safe; looking to the camera, messing around and pulling faces."

I do not think this is a ridiculous assertion. I may be wrong but can you not see where I'm coming from? I believe the lyrics are open to interpretation here...

-Vaux

 

[Worm]

I believe the lyrics are open to interpretation here...

With all due respect, no, I don't think they're open. The song depicts a grim idea of the universe in which some are fated to kill/be killed, and some are fated to save lives/to live. We're all innocents caught in a struggle between forces mightier than we are. Overtones of Greek tragedy, and if that analogy holds then both Bush and bin Laden would be the perverse "gods" who sacrifice some and favor others. In his mind victims of 9/11 would be the same as children killed by U.S. bombs. The artist's sympathies lie with the mortals caught in the crossfire, perhaps like the kids in Dave's picture (by the way how did Pip get in there? "Pip! Piiiiiiiip!"), not with one of the antagonists. But "there is no end" means there is an afterlife, so all is not lost even if the flesh dies. That's the point of emphasis on the word "end".

Remember, Morrissey made scathing comments about Churchill. I don't think Morrissey regards wars as just or unjust. A handful of powerful cowards growing rich on the corpses of the thousands of young men they send to die-- that is Morrissey's idea of war. He does not take sides. Bin Laden, who literally sends his men on suicide missions, usually to kill innocent people no less, fits that description as well as any suited jackal in Washington or London.

Also I don't think that Osama bin Laden has ever "pulled a face". Jim Carrey may have "pulled a face" or two in his day. Maybe Robin Williams or Harpo Marx. I pulled a face the first time I saw the video for "November Spawned A Monster". But not bin Laden. "Pulling faces" means clowning around ("puling faces" would of course mean the expression on Marr's mug when the interview turns to the subject of Morrissey).

Such is my interpretation of the song itself. Looking at the assertion that Osama bin Laden is the implied subject, well, despite his sometimes astonishing political naivete, I credit Morrissey with enough knowledge of world events to know that one of Osama bin Laden's core beliefs-- among many, many other insane opinions-- is that women should have their rights taken away and be enslaved by men. Morrissey would no more welcome a world run by BushCo than he would a caliphate ruled by bin Laden's iron fist.

I'm not a person who needs Morrissey to be safe. I don't have to be spoonfed unambiguous lyrics. I like that Morrissey takes risks, and I don't mind his unpopular opinions. I also enjoy it when he is deliberately provocative. The suggestion that he is writing about Osama bin Laden is flat-out wrong and I've felt that way since Armond White and others first suggested it in ROTT reviews. It is likely that he probably regards Bush with more contempt than bin Laden-- that I could see-- but neither man is sympathetic to him. If the question is really open about this, I suggest someone send a question to Julia and have him answer it directly. If this song is indeed addressed to bin Laden that would spare me the cost of any future Morrissey purchases.

 

[Vauxhall95]

Worm, as always a well thought out, well articulated opinion. In many ways I agree with you. Just to restate the lyrics:
"Destiny for some is to save lives
But destiny for some is to end lives
But there is no end
And I will see you in far off places."

Personally, I always get a mental image of the firefighters running into the Towers and the planes smashing in and the war that is now afoot which will last the duration of our lives, perhaps longer. Maybe I am biased in my interpretation in that I lived in Saudi Arabia for nearly 16 years. Mix in some semi Middle Eastern themed music and I can't help jump to the war on terrorism connection.

"If your god bestows protection upon you
And if the USA doesn't bomb you
I believe I will see you somewhere safe
Looking to the camera, messing around
and pulling faces. "

I never saw Morrissey as taking sides in this song because I tell you now: there will be no winners in this war. Only escalating misery on both sides. When the U.S. failed to kill Bin Laden at Tora Bora he released a video showing the world how the mighty U.S. could not kill him. To me the lyrics, "If your god bestows protection upon you And if the USA doesn't bomb you I believe I will see you somewhere safe Looking to the camera, messing around and pulling faces," remind me of those videos not literally making faces and clowning for the camera but metaphorically. Here I am, you cannot kill me...

I do not know what is in Morrissey's mind. This original thread was started with the simple question: do you think Morrissey is taking the easy way out by replacing "U.S.A. with George Bush" while playing in the United States. If you are now telling me the lyric implies Morrissey is speaking to the bombing of innocents by the U.S. then I am even more disturbed he doesn't stick to his original lyrics.

Again, as always I enjoy your posts. A little friendly debate is not a bad thing...

-Vaux

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

I agree with the idea about common people, perhaps it's also about that it first matters when there is somebody you love out there, otherwise it's just passing news. You must step over that to become the one who 'saves lives'.

One thing does not click for me.

But "there is no end" means there is an afterlife, so all is not lost even if the flesh dies. That's the point of emphasis on the word "end".

After "But there is no end/ And I will see you in far off places." (meeting in the afterlife, no matter what?), there comes "If your god bestows protection upon you/ And if the USA doesn't bomb you" - it's about survival. Sarcastic optimism, but isn't it contradictory to the thought before? The change of the location for 'far-off places' does not seem logical (it could be, if it was, f.x., "And there is no end,/ But I will see you in far off places.")

 

[Worm]

Worm, as always a well thought out, well articulated opinion. In many ways I agree with you. Just to restate the lyrics:
"Destiny for some is to save lives
But destiny for some is to end lives
But there is no end
And I will see you in far off places."

Personally, I always get a mental image of the firefighters running into the Towers and the planes smashing in and the war that is now afoot which will last the duration of our lives, perhaps longer. Maybe I am biased in my interpretation in that I lived in Saudi Arabia for nearly 16 years. Mix in some semi Middle Eastern themed music and I can't help jump to the war on terrorism connection.

"If your god bestows protection upon you
And if the USA doesn't bomb you
I believe I will see you somewhere safe
Looking to the camera, messing around
and pulling faces. "

I never saw Morrissey as taking sides in this song because I tell you now: there will be no winners in this war. Only escalating misery on both sides. When the U.S. failed to kill Bin Laden at Tora Bora he released a video showing the world how the mighty U.S. could not kill him. To me the lyrics, "If your god bestows protection upon you And if the USA doesn't bomb you I believe I will see you somewhere safe Looking to the camera, messing around and pulling faces," remind me of those videos not literally making faces and clowning for the camera but metaphorically. Here I am, you cannot kill me...

I do not know what is in Morrissey's mind. This original thread was started with the simple question: do you think Morrissey is taking the easy way out by replacing "U.S.A. with George Bush" while playing in the United States. If you are now telling me the lyric implies Morrissey is speaking to the bombing of innocents by the U.S. then I am even more disturbed he doesn't stick to his original lyrics.

Again, as always I enjoy your posts. A little friendly debate is not a bad thing...

-Vaux

Thanks, I enjoy yours too. I don't mean to be boorish about this subject, but it's like the old saw about Joy Division being Nazis-- it isn't just a matter of opinion, it's verging on slander. Fans should nip these ideas in the bud when they can. Yours is an intelligent response to the song and I'm not arguing for censorship, but on a public forum I at least want to offer a rebuttal.

I remain unconvinced by your argument but I see where you're coming from. I don't think there's any doubt the song is about the conflicts in the Middle East, so I'm not surprised you thought of that. I did too. Morrissey isn't taking sides, no, but to say the song is addressed to Osama bin Laden is to say that Morrissey feels some solidarity or sympathy with him as a human being. I don't think Morrissey feels that way. I do think Morrissey has a lot of sympathy for the victims in Iraq and elsewhere who are the victims of these wars, and it's to these people the song is addressed. The notion that he would show any warmth to a murderer like bin Laden is unbelievable. Are we supposed to believe that Morrissey would share a pint with Osama up in Heaven's pub?

Then again, he always said he would be joining his friends in Hell...

Anyway I don't blame you for being disturbed by the idea that Morrissey is implying that the U.S. Army is killing civilians, because it's an unsettling viewpoint that's extremely challenging. But nevertheless I'm saying exactly that about what I think his opinion really is-- whether we agree with it or not, as far as I have seen Morrissey does not choose sides in these conflicts, seeing them instead as avoidable acts of mindless violence and greed, crimes shrouded in lies and propaganda to make us believe they are clashes between nations when they're really just messy exchanges of capital between a few men. Now, I don't quite believe that's true, but in any event that's my account of Morrissey's political ideas on this subject. I accept that he may not choose sides in these wars-- a non-position I don't think one really ought to take-- because he consistently does not choose sides. For him to flirt with even afterworldly camaraderie with Osama bin Laden is well past unforgivable, and fortunately I don't think that's the case.

 

[Worm]

One thing does not click for me.

Doesn't click for me either. I think it's a contradiction. You're completely right to talk about the two opposing views, but at the same time it seems cut and dried to me that "There is no end" means an afterlife. I suppose it could just mean "There is no end to the cycle of killing and saving lives", but I think he means afterlife. The "But-But-And" sequence is confusing. Still, even if I'm wrong about "end" it doesn't change my overall opinion of the song's meaning.

As an example of a song whose meaning is clear while containing something that doesn't click, I offer the line "It's death for no reason/And death for no reason is murder" in "Meat Is Murder". I would not want to work at the DA's office in such a world.

 

[Alcoholic Afternoons]

As an example of a song whose meaning is clear while containing something that doesn't click, I offer the line "It's death for no reason/And death for no reason is murder" in "Meat Is Murder". I would not want to work at the DA's office in such a world.

That's not inconsistent, though, it's just a bit of artistic license. "And intentionally killing a person without sufficient justification such as self-defense or defense of others is murder" just wouldn't make a good lyric. I think everyone gets that he means we don't need to kill animals for food in order to survive, so it's death for no reason, which he then calls "murder."

 

[Worm]

That's not inconsistent, though, it's just a bit of artistic license. "And intentionally killing a person without sufficient justification such as self-defense or defense of others is murder" just wouldn't make a good lyric. I think everyone gets that he means we don't need to kill animals for food in order to survive, so it's death for no reason, which he then calls "murder."

You're right, of course, but that line always sticks out badly to me. There has to be another way of saying it un-boringly without that trip-up. Maybe "It's killling for no reason, and killing for no reason is murder" sounds odd now, since we know the song so well-- and is comically redundant-- but I'll bet Morrissey could have made it work. In any case that's a line that doesn't "click" for me. It sounds exactly like something a child would say, undermining what is otherwise a ghastly, devastatingly effective song.

Incidentally I had the same reaction to the line from that introduction Morrissey wrote recently-- "torture factories of dread". Doesn't that sound like something Dr. Evil would cook up?

 

[Alcoholic Afternoons]

You're right, of course, but that line always sticks out badly to me. There has to be another way of saying it un-boringly without that trip-up. Maybe "It's killling for no reason, and killing for no reason is murder" sounds odd now, since we know the song so well-- and is comically redundant-- but I'll bet Morrissey could have made it work. In any case that's a line that doesn't "click" for me. It sounds exactly like something a child would say, undermining what is otherwise a ghastly, devastatingly effective song.

Incidentally I had the same reaction to the line from that introduction Morrissey wrote recently-- "torture factories of dread". Doesn't that sound like something Dr. Evil would cook up?

LOL. Yes, and using hand gestures to include the quotation marks and everything.

That line had never bugged me much, but I know what you mean. Anyway, it's not even killing for no reason, since it's killing based on supply and demand and the fact that people enjoy "savoring the flavor" ("savouring the flavour" for the Brits out there) of dead cows. It's just killing for an (arguably) not very good reason.

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

As an example of a song whose meaning is clear while containing something that doesn't click, I offer the line "It's death for no reason/And death for no reason is murder" in "Meat Is Murder". I would not want to work at the DA's office in such a world.

Yes, I noticed too. Maybe I'm wrong (or stretching), but it could be that it has an inner meaning - that such death is murder of those who care, i.e. you slaughter them, you murder us.

Edit: 'death for no reason' - 'death beyond sense'.
Edit x2:
death (dĕth) pronunciation
n.

1. The act of dying; termination of life.
2. The state of being dead.
3. The cause of dying: Drugs were the death of him.
4. A manner of dying: a heroine's death.
5. often Death A personification of the destroyer of life, usually represented as a skeleton holding a scythe.
6. 1. Bloodshed; murder. 2. Execution.
7. Law. Civil death.
8. The termination or extinction of something: the death of imperialism.

 

[Worm]

Yes, I noticed too. Maybe I'm wrong (or stretching), but it could be that it has an inner meaning - that such death is murder of those who care, i.e. you slaughter them, you murder us.

Maybe! Who knows, you might be right. It's to revolutionaries that semantics matter most.

 

[Vauxhall95]

"I remain unconvinced by your argument but I see where you're coming from. I don't think there's any doubt the song is about the conflicts in the Middle East, so I'm not surprised you thought of that. I did too. Morrissey isn't taking sides, no, but to say the song is addressed to Osama bin Laden is to say that Morrissey feels some solidarity or sympathy with him as a human being. I don't think Morrissey feels that way. I do think Morrissey has a lot of sympathy for the victims in Iraq and elsewhere who are the victims of these wars, and it's to these people the song is addressed. The notion that he would show any warmth to a murderer like bin Laden is unbelievable. Are we supposed to believe that Morrissey would share a pint with Osama up in Heaven's pub?"

I don't think one needs to go quite that far, "...but to say the song is addressed to Osama bin Laden is to say that Morrissey feels some solidarity or sympathy with him as a human being." I view Morrissey as an outside observer commenting on what he sees. "The notion that he would show any warmth to a murderer like bin Laden is unbelievable. Are we supposed to believe that Morrissey would share a pint with Osama up in Heaven's pub?" No, but he has played the mass killer card before, I.e. Reggie Cray do you know my name?" He did so to make a much larger point: the glamorization of killers by the media.

I don't think the verse:
"If your god bestows protection upon you
And if the USA doesn't bomb you
I believe I will see you somewhere safe
Looking to the camera, messing around
and pulling faces. "
...makes Morrissey a Taliban supporter. I view this as the people who flew those planes into the Towers did so with the explicit belief that they were doing the will of God and would be rewarded. That's just a fact. They didn't leave a note because to them their actions were obvious.

If Morrissey were to sing the above lyric with the idea the perpetrators of 9/11 would be rewarded in the afterlife (and Bin Laden and his ilk), I wouldn't find that offensive for the simple reason that people are always slaughtering one another in the name of religion. Hence the hypocrisy of mainstream religion. Personally, I don't make the leap that by stating that humanity is continuously killing in the name of religion as offensive as lending aid and support to terrorism. It merely explains their belief system.

A system we must get a better grasp on. The idiocy of simply calling them "the evil doers" and not recognizing that the West has to accept some blame for arming these militants in Afghanistan and then disappearing shortly after the Red Army withdrew only to leave Pakistan holding the bag. By neglecting that region, by supporting repressive regimes in the Middle East as long as the gas prices remained low, have all lead to us currently reaping the whirlwind.

Not sure if you have listened to Jarvis Cocker's new album, but I thought he did a great job of encapsulating the politics and beliefs of our time in a very engaging record (IMO).

Time to steer the bus back to Morrissey, so when's that Hollywood Bowl DVD coming out anyway??

-Vaux

 

[Worm]

LOL. Yes, and using hand gestures to include the quotation marks and everything.

That line had never bugged me much, but I know what you mean. Anyway, it's not even killing for no reason, since it's killing based on supply and demand and the fact that people enjoy "savoring the flavor" ("savouring the flavour" for the Brits out there) of dead cows. It's just killing for an (arguably) not very good reason.

Yeah, exactly. The point is he's asking you (in an emotionally-charged, heavy-handed way) to reason it out for yourself-- and at the appointed "Huh! Hadn't looked at it that way!" moment you're instead going, "Well, not really. It could be this, could be that...yes it's 'murder' in a way, but..." Sort of trips over itself. I actually like the song, weirdly enough. But the lyrics don't add up for me. I think they're daft, however much I like the sentiments (Mark E. Smith would've done it better, chanting "Meat Is...MUR-der!" over and over, with full abattoir symphony behind him). I put it down to meat being the most emotional subject in Morrissey's life-- he had that traumatic experience as a boy watching the documentary on the meat industry and I don't think his thoughts on meat have really aged. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. "Meat Is Murder" is a very childlike song.

 

[Worm]

I don't think one needs to go quite that far, "...but to say the song is addressed to Osama bin Laden is to say that Morrissey feels some solidarity or sympathy with him as a human being." I view Morrissey as an outside observer commenting on what he sees. "The notion that he would show any warmth to a murderer like bin Laden is unbelievable. Are we supposed to believe that Morrissey would share a pint with Osama up in Heaven's pub?" No, but he has played the mass killer card before, I.e. Reggie Cray do you know my name?" He did so to make a much larger point: the glamorization of killers by the media.

I don't think the verse:
"If your god bestows protection upon you
And if the USA doesn't bomb you
I believe I will see you somewhere safe
Looking to the camera, messing around
and pulling faces. "
...makes Morrissey a Taliban supporter. I view this as the people who flew those planes into the Towers did so with the explicit belief that they were doing the will of God and would be rewarded. That's just a fact. They didn't leave a note because to them their actions were obvious.

If Morrissey were to sing the above lyric with the idea the perpetrators of 9/11 would be rewarded in the afterlife (and Bin Laden and his ilk), I wouldn't find that offensive for the simple reason that people are always slaughtering one another in the name of religion. Hence the hypocrisy of mainstream religion. Personally, I don't make the leap that by stating that humanity is continuously killing in the name of religion as offensive as lending aid and support to terrorism. It merely explains their belief system.

A system we must get a better grasp on. The idiocy of simply calling them "the evil doers" and not recognizing that the West has to accept some blame for arming these militants in Afghanistan and then disappearing shortly after the Red Army withdrew only to leave Pakistan holding the bag. By neglecting that region, by supporting repressive regimes in the Middle East as long as the gas prices remained low, have all lead to us currently reaping the whirlwind.

Not sure if you have listened to Jarvis Cocker's new album, but I thought he did a great job of encapsulating the politics and beliefs of our time in a very engaging record (IMO).

Time to steer the bus back to Morrissey, so when's that Hollywood Bowl DVD coming out anyway??

-Vaux

He played the mass killer card before but it's as you said-- it's about the media's glorification of criminals. But if you interpret the song as genuinely admiring of the brothers (and not as a song Morrissey wrote about a character), then you could probably say that Morrissey is holding up (no pun intended) the Krays as noble because they represent a spirited fight against bigger criminals. It's the "Scarface" defense: "I'm a bad guy, but I'm small fry compared to who I'm up against"; the true villain in Oliver Stone's script isn't Al Pacino, it's the blue-eyed, milk-drinking devil from Washington.

After all, in a sense the Krays, or the ganglord, or whichever criminals Morrissey likes this week, are basically after the same things regular people are after, they just have different means of getting what they want. By rejecting the normal, socially-accepted ways of living, criminals, like artists, reveal society's disgusting hypocrisy. Hence the romance of gangsters, who think of themselves not as anamolies but as regular guys forced into emulating the bigger gangsters who happen to wear suits and run for political office. When they're brought to justice, they see it as the larger, more sinister, "respectable" cartel rubbing out an upstart operation.

In other words, gangsters and criminals of the type Morrissey likes are essentially normal people, if we could but see them that way. What is a drug pusher but a businessman, like Bill Gates? What is a gang war but a clash of competitors in a tight marketplace, just like Exxon and B.P.? Et cetera. It's a common theme in pop music and movies-- one tapped by a lot of gangsta rappers, ironically enough.

Given this, doesn't Osama bin Laden seem a different kettle of fish? Islamofascists are not the bloke down the street who might bust your teeth in for not paying the week's protection money-- they're genocidal nutjobs, the thug you could still have a conversation with about boxing or football if you caught him on the right day. The Krays wanted power and money. Bin Laden would execute Mrs. Morrissey for leaving the house without having her headgear sorted. I don't see how in the world Morrissey could fail to spot the difference.

I share some of your opinions about the war but that's another thread...

I haven't heard the new Jarvis Cocker album. I'll give it a listen.

 

[suparni]

From what I've seen and heard from the beginning of the Ringleader of the Tormentor's tour, whenever Morissey has played "I Will See You In Far Off Places" in the U.K and Europe he has sung the lyric, "And if the U.S.A. doesn't bomb you." The same lyric that appears on the album version of the song.

However, during the recent U.S. leg of the tour the lyric has been changed to, "And if George Bush doesn't bomb you." Morrissey seems to want to have it both ways. Bash the U.S. when out of the country, while selectively attacking the President when performing in the U.S.

The whole lyric change bothers me. I think he should be performing the song in the U.S. just as he wrote it in Rome. Am I alone in this?

-Vaux

PLEASE DON'T START BITCHING ABOUT MORRISSEY!!!!! AT LEAST WE ARE NOT IN CANADA HERE IN THE US... :/ AND SO WE HAD BETTER NOT START ACTING LIKE CANADIANS WITH NITPICKIN BITCHIN!

BAWWWHAHHAHHA... (i'm sorry to all you canadians i have not argued with... as the shows approach i am really feelin for you a little... and i ESP feel for the ones who have not bitched BRAVO and hats off to you guys..,) but no way in hell is somebody going to start nitpicking about little lyric changes when we are lucky enough to see Moz live...
period.