Billy Bragg on Morrissey and things

That stuff he said about Morrissey was hilarious! I've never been into Bragg's music but he's a genuine bloke.

 

[Anonymous]

So what do you suggest everyone does to invoke change? You're slagging everyone off for not voting, we've already established that voting is an utter waste of time. So what should we all do?

I'll be waiting 'til 2096 for a coherent answer to this one...

Ah, okay. I think I can see how you want this conversation to go: I list things that anybody can do to participate in politics - things that you're already familiar with - and, in reply, you complain that the type/extent of "change" you say you want would take a long time and a lot of effort (i.e. more time and effort than you're prepared to make).

Thing is, Charlie, if you sincerely felt any significant of grievance about the society you live in, you'd already be doing something about it, not wasting your very comfortable life, posting on your favourite pop-star's website, trying to pass off your political apathy as lofty disillusionment.

 

[wastelandofyourhead]

You think they want the immigrants, the poor, the disenfranchised to vote. Bullshit.

In America, Republican pundits refer to bringing those folk in as the "Democrat voter registration drive".

Why it should matter, I can't say. They're just as screwed by the other prevailing party. Sure, a few nuances will be thrown their way in a feigned gesture of support. Perhaps they will claim credit for social policies that were sure to be implemented anyway by a natural evolution of society that could only stand against the tide for so long (civil/gay rights). But in the fundamentals regarding our collective money being usurped for warmongering, increased federal largess, and the obliteration of individual personal rights, they'll have little difference in the realized benefits of either party.

 

[wastelandofyourhead]

Morrissey's "message" is pathetic. Somebody on another thread, today, summed-up perfectly his attempt at agit-pop on World Peace...: s/he said, "It's not even provocative, it's just stupid."

What Morrissey advocates is capitulation and resignation in the face of injustice. Then again, he's a multi-millionaire so he can afford to sit back, be complacent and talk shite about things that don't cause him any hardship. Why any ordinary citizen would take a lecture on social justice by a very privileged, very wealthy celebrity, however, is beyond me.

Well, first off, I respect that you are making an argument based on subject matter rather than personal attack. Its an interesting discussion.

I'll beg to differ on the pathetic nature of Morrissey's message. To each his/her own there.

What I can say is that I have resonated with Morrissey and my interpretation of his meaning throughout the years. And while he may have never used the exact language "don't vote" in his earlier works, I hardly find great contradiction in the general malaise of his craft. He wasn't always a very privileged person. And I didn't start identifying with him yesterday.

I have taken actual lecture on this topic from university professors. The description from my last course on social problems:

Studies contemporary social issues dealing with crime, sexuality, drug abuse, violence, and families, in addition to larger social problems such as war, poverty, race and ethnic relations, population and the environment.

While I got an A in the class and enjoyed researching my term paper on Whistleblowing as a movement, my take-home was that affecting change in this stratosphere is big business. Managing public perception. Creating lobbyist groups to counteract other lobbyist groups, and so on.

I'm not saying you can't be involved. But it had damn well better be your paying job, unless you are privileged enough to be independently wealthy. I'm in the IT industry. I'll facilitate servers for any group of any affiliation. My business isn't one of lobbying to control the message and steer it towards my constituency.

I think it is all pretty well f***ed on the political system. But I'm not without hope. I just don't think hope comes in the form of a Republican or a Democrat. The internet and its ability to facilitate the mass exchange of unfiltered information - that is hopeful. Turning off the TV news and finding out some answers for yourself - that is hopeful.

I'm not going to make a website encouraging others not to vote. But I find nothing wrong with Morrissey's message. To me, he is a voice of catharsis for the disenfranchised. Sometimes, people just have to be people first, and citizens second. National pride hasn't filled me with some wellspring of goodness that enabled me to face the day. But Morrissey's music certainly has.

 

[Anonymous]

He still didn't say don't vote only pointed out confliction. If he said don't vote can u point out where

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Ah, okay. I think I can see how you want this conversation to go: I list things that anybody can do to participate in politics - things that you're already familiar with - and, in reply, you complain that the type/extent of "change" you say you want would take a long time and a lot of effort (i.e. more time and effort than you're prepared to make).

Thing is, Charlie, if you sincerely felt any significant of grievance about the society you live in, you'd already be doing something about it, not wasting your very comfortable life, posting on your favourite pop-star's website, trying to pass off your political apathy as lofty disillusionment.

Well that was worth the wait. Four pages in you can't answer then. As I thought, you've got f*** all to offer apart from disliking people not voting. Bravo.

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Well, first off, I respect that you are making an argument based on subject matter rather than personal attack. Its an interesting discussion.

I'll beg to differ on the pathetic nature of Morrissey's message. To each his/her own there.

What I can say is that I have resonated with Morrissey and my interpretation of his meaning throughout the years. And while he may have never used the exact language "don't vote" in his earlier works, I hardly find great contradiction in the general malaise of his craft. He wasn't always a very privileged person. And I didn't start identifying with him yesterday.

I have taken actual lecture on this topic from university professors. The description from my last course on social problems:

Studies contemporary social issues dealing with crime, sexuality, drug abuse, violence, and families, in addition to larger social problems such as war, poverty, race and ethnic relations, population and the environment.

While I got an A in the class and enjoyed researching my term paper on Whistleblowing as a movement, my take-home was that affecting change in this stratosphere is big business. Managing public perception. Creating lobbyist groups to counteract other lobbyist groups, and so on.

I'm not saying you can't be involved. But it had damn well better be your paying job, unless you are privileged enough to be independently wealthy. I'm in the IT industry. I'll facilitate servers for any group of any affiliation. My business isn't one of lobbying to control the message and steer it towards my constituency.

I think it is all pretty well f***ed on the political system. But I'm not without hope. I just don't think hope comes in the form of a Republican or a Democrat. The internet and its ability to facilitate the mass exchange of unfiltered information - that is hopeful. Turning off the TV news and finding out some answers for yourself - that is hopeful.

I'm not going to make a website encouraging others not to vote. But I find nothing wrong with Morrissey's message. To me, he is a voice of catharsis for the disenfranchised. Sometimes, people just have to be people first, and citizens second. National pride hasn't filled me with some wellspring of goodness that enabled me to face the day. But Morrissey's music certainly has.

Very good points. I was saying that you need to be a media mogul or heavily influential in a pressure group to have any say in political change. As individual citizens we can write to our MP's, write to Newspapers, try to improve things locally but when it comes to the big picture, people with the big money are the ones with the control.

Houses are built at a rate that controls how much money we have, ditto interest rates, employment levels are kept at a level that keeps us from having any power in the workplace, the list goes on and yet people naively think that they can have any influence on the big picture. If you do want to take a stand and improve things, whether it's environmentally, through animal welfare or economically then you'll have to get past police spies who are there to insure that the status quo is never disrupted. We live in a society where we're completely controlled by the State under the allusion that we're all free. Labour will free up more money to allow a little more equality but they're still shit scared of upsetting the money men as it's basically them that's keeping us afloat as we no longer make anything.

So in short, if it makes you feel better popping your x in a box feel free but unless you've got a big plan up your sleeve don't expect your x to make the slightest difference.

 

[Anonymous]

Well that was worth the wait. Four pages in you can't answer then. As I thought, you've got f*** all to offer apart from disliking people not voting. Bravo.

As predicted, apathy being misrepresented as lofty disdain. Bravo indeed.

 

[Anonymous]

Very good points. I was saying that you need to be a media mogul or heavily influential in a pressure group to have any say in political change. As individual citizens we can write to our MP's, write to Newspapers, try to improve things locally but when it comes to the big picture, people with the big money are the ones with the control.

Houses are built at a rate that controls how much money we have, ditto interest rates, employment levels are kept at a level that keeps us from having any power in the workplace, the list goes on and yet people naively think that they can have any influence on the big picture. If you do want to take a stand and improve things, whether it's environmentally, through animal welfare or economically then you'll have to get past police spies who are there to insure that the status quo is never disrupted. We live in a society where we're completely controlled by the State under the allusion that we're all free. Labour will free up more money to allow a little more equality but they're still shit scared of upsetting the money men as it's basically them that's keeping us afloat as we no longer make anything.

So in short, if it makes you feel better popping your x in a box feel free but unless you've got a big plan up your sleeve don't expect your x to make the slightest difference.

Yes, that's right. Change is impossible.

Now explain the emergence of capitalist democracy out of feudal relations of production.

 

[Anonymous]

the plague killed half the population making laborers more valuable and putting lords in more vulnerable positions making them negotiate more for there services which empowered them to better protect themselves and there interests. obviously more complecated an evolution but i imagine thats the start of things.

 

[wastelandofyourhead]

He still didn't say don't vote only pointed out confliction. If he said don't vote can u point out where

That is true. I wasn't trying to misrepresent him there. He just said, you support the process when you vote. He also said that what government is for is to stun you with their stun guns. The implication, I believe, is that we are ruled by force. Most of the wide-reaching restrictions that have been placed upon me as a citizen in these United States were not based on the founding of this country. Some greedy special interest lobbied to put them in place or some power-hungry mass entity known as the federal government enacted them. They got in there easily, by duping the masses. Taking them out is much harder. And they will rule you by force, if necessary. Disable you with tasers because you [insert innocuous offense] and you don't cease and desist, as the case may be. Ruled by force, fueled by greed and lust for power. Accountable to no one. That's my democratic government as I see it.

Whether Morrissey makes a million or a billion, at least he says this much. He's no turn-coat. The celebrity world is full of those. You've got Ice-T, the author of the song Cop Killer, starring in TV's Law and Order as a police detective lol. That's celebrity to me. No, Morrissey, for all his contradictions and outspoken mishaps, is the genuine article. However lazed and grazed he may have become in the millionaire years, he's still speaking to me.

 

[wastelandofyourhead]

Yes, that's right. Change is impossible.

Of course it is possible. But how it will happen and whether it will trend for the better or worse is a mystery to us all.

Current history has yet to determine the culprit to some of our latest mishaps. The American economic meltdown in 2008 was an epic fail for which we don't have enough answers. There are clearly power-brokers at play here. Did they miscalculate? Were the interests of the people and the common good ever in the calculation?

We are going to evolve. I don't think it will come from the political process as it currently stands. I don't think we will see the kind of change that science fiction futurists envision in our lifetime. But that's what I'm hoping for - for humanity's peaceful progression. A global society where technology enables us to contribute to things that matter. Where technology is utilized to improve the conditions of humankind, not destroy them. Where technology is freedom from labor, as a means of survival, for the weak and the under-educated.

Today's government (and its greedy bedfellows) will receive a future place of condemnation for wasted opportunity.. if the right people exist to write those history books.

I think human history is replete with great people doing tremendous things, against great odds. Those people exist today, I'm sure. I don't see any of them in the mainstream political spectrum. And I have serious doubts about the agenda of those outside of government, that have the power and backing to control and determine policy and the future direction. I'm not very well-informed on who those people are. I think it could be that way by design. Some of them must be "good"?

We are in a world, today, where a contemporary recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, Barack Obama, has launched untold missile strikes. When the masses become inundated with Orwellian symbolism, they become powerless to think, I think. That renders voting ineffectual, in my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

That is true. I wasn't trying to misrepresent him there. He just said, you support the process when you vote. He also said that what government is for is to stun you with their stun guns. The implication, I believe, is that we are ruled by force. Most of the wide-reaching restrictions that have been placed upon me as a citizen in these United States were not based on the founding of this country. Some greedy special interest lobbied to put them in place or some power-hungry mass entity known as the federal government enacted them. They got in there easily, by duping the masses. Taking them out is much harder. And they will rule you by force, if necessary. Disable you with tasers because you [insert innocuous offense] and you don't cease and desist, as the case may be. Ruled by force, fueled by greed and lust for power. Accountable to no one. That's my democratic government as I see it.

Whether Morrissey makes a million or a billion, at least he says this much. He's no turn-coat. The celebrity world is full of those. You've got Ice-T, the author of the song Cop Killer, starring in TV's Law and Order as a police detective lol. That's celebrity to me. No, Morrissey, for all his contradictions and outspoken mishaps, is the genuine article. However lazed and grazed he may have become in the millionaire years, he's still speaking to me.

just because he pointed out negatives doesnt mean he thinks there are no positives either hence the word confliction oh hell ill just use the word conflict to avoid the red line that seems eminent in the song. he might have meant just the governments he mentioned by name if you really only want to take everything literally and with only what words are there and just loves his own (i know). point is the song doesnt say to do anything and is a song of observations only. morrisseys not shy to say something so i think if he wanted people to not vote or thought they were wrong to do so then he would say just that. by pointing out nasty negatives of government and saying that voting supports this is a damning statement but it doesnt go so far as making it an absolute one which i think is intentional. not all cops are the same, governments do do some good for people etc as he knows. the interview he did mentioning russel brand i also think shows hes still conflicted. maybe im wrong in recalling but didnt he say somoething that he more comming round to brand and starting to believe him right. that to me doesnt add up to most of the claims saying morrissey is naive and telling people not to vote

 

[Anonymous]

That is true. I wasn't trying to misrepresent him there. He just said, you support the process when you vote. He also said that what government is for is to stun you with their stun guns. The implication, I believe, is that we are ruled by force. Most of the wide-reaching restrictions that have been placed upon me as a citizen in these United States were not based on the founding of this country. Some greedy special interest lobbied to put them in place or some power-hungry mass entity known as the federal government enacted them. They got in there easily, by duping the masses. Taking them out is much harder. And they will rule you by force, if necessary. Disable you with tasers because you [insert innocuous offense] and you don't cease and desist, as the case may be. Ruled by force, fueled by greed and lust for power. Accountable to no one. That's my democratic government as I see it.

Whether Morrissey makes a million or a billion, at least he says this much. He's no turn-coat. The celebrity world is full of those. You've got Ice-T, the author of the song Cop Killer, starring in TV's Law and Order as a police detective lol. That's celebrity to me. No, Morrissey, for all his contradictions and outspoken mishaps, is the genuine article. However lazed and grazed he may have become in the millionaire years, he's still speaking to me.

just because he pointed out negatives doesnt mean he thinks there are no positives either hence the word confliction oh hell ill just use the word conflict to avoid the red line that seems eminent in the song. he might have meant just the governments he mentioned by name if you really only want to take everything literally and with only what words are there and just loves his own (i know). point is the song doesnt say to do anything and is a song of observations only. morrisseys not shy to say something so i think if he wanted people to not vote or thought they were wrong to do so then he would say just that. by pointing out nasty negatives of government and saying that voting supports this is a damning statement but it doesnt go so far as making it an absolute one which i think is intentional. not all cops are the same, governments do do some good for people etc as he knows. the interview he did mentioning russel brand i also think shows hes still conflicted. maybe im wrong in recalling but didnt he say somoething that he more comming round to brand and starting to believe him right. that to me doesnt add up to most of the claims saying morrissey is naive and telling people not to vote

 

[wastelandofyourhead]

just because he pointed out negatives doesnt mean he thinks there are no positives either hence the word confliction oh hell ill just use the word conflict to avoid the red line that seems eminent in the song. he might have meant just the governments he mentioned by name if you really only want to take everything literally and with only what words are there and just loves his own (i know). point is the song doesnt say to do anything and is a song of observations only. morrisseys not shy to say something so i think if he wanted people to not vote or thought they were wrong to do so then he would say just that. by pointing out nasty negatives of government and saying that voting supports this is a damning statement but it doesnt go so far as making it an absolute one which i think is intentional. not all cops are the same, governments do do some good for people etc as he knows. the interview he did mentioning russel brand i also think shows hes still conflicted. maybe im wrong in recalling but didnt he say somoething that he more comming round to brand and starting to believe him right. that to me doesnt add up to most of the claims saying morrissey is naive and telling people not to vote

I think confliction is a good word for it. I see your point. His use of suggestion is not necessarily all-encompassing or exclusive of the potential positives. Which speaks to what you are saying that he's not so daft as to lyrically simply proclaim - just don't vote, period.

Why do you think those people are reading into it with such criticism? What chords is that striking with them, in defense of their position against this observation?

 

[Anonymous]

i dont think people know very much about there own government and feel unsure about a lot of things one being ways to influence it (they dont try so they wont fail and be embarrassed) which can make a person feel disoriented and insecure in there power. that said i think peoples reading into it that way has more to do with what they think of morrissey the man/public image (which ever you prefer) at the moment.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Telling people not to vote is like cutting off a gangrene leg. You still have to have a plan for a prosthetic to walk on, though. I'm curious what Morrissey's ideas are regarding a prosthetic leg? Endorsing anarchy doesn't seem feasible or in line with the sophistication of his 60s ideals he holds so dear. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Don't take the piss out of Dear Leader Morrissey or his delusional Cult Fans? LOL! Like I give a fcuk.

What evidence is there that Morrissey isn't using anti-Capitalist/Corporate Occupy tropes as anything more than what Tom Wolfe called "Radical Chic"?

Where is Morrissey personally and corporately domiciled for tax purposes? Switzerland? Along with the Banksters & Aristos? Benelux enclave like Jagger? His affiliation with the Irish State, did it extend beyond their Tax Exemption For Artists? As for being "British", how does that express itself? Is he a member of any political parties on this island that seek to end unearned inhertited royalist/aristocratic Privilege?

Or is he just a total pseud who uses Outsider Art props as his USP in the Capitalist Music Market whilst bending and spreading as a tour-bus bitch for the new overlords of Corporate Live Music? What adverts will he allow on the ticker-tape feed at the O2 Arena? What food will he allow to be sold at The Greenwich Peninsula food emporium which encircles the venue and is an integral part of the performance building? What percentage of his tour profits does he donate to homeless charities in each city he plays? Will he stay in Vegan/Animal Rights friendly hotels and let them organise the tour rider? Does he still eat Dairy? Will he be joining Pamela Anderson on Sea Shepherd duty?

I think I can make an informed guess about the correct answers. Would anybody like to bet the odds on whether or not Morrissey stipulates a pre-interview contract that explicitly excludes any and all enquiries about his tax status, not to mention the details of his current sex life or the absence of such sexual activity? I know the answer to that one!......

He's a pseud. End of. But hilarious....unlike Billy Bragg who's great, but a bit earnest. Met Billy at Covent Garden Travelodge with his kids. I was there with my kids. Funny how Being Dad changes everything, not Money....that's if you're lucky enough to actually find a life beyond the tinsel and baubles of 'pop music'.

best wishes
[drinking yet another cup of tea having packed for a flight to Paris]
BrummieBoy

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Yes, that's right. Change is impossible.

Now explain the emergence of capitalist democracy out of feudal relations of production.

Again, you've told us that change is possible, told me to go out and make it happen but you have no idea how to make it happen. Let's have your ideas. So far they amount to go and vote and you still haven't told us how that will make a blind bit of difference.

At present we seem to be following the US model of Capitalism. The Government has over the last 30 or so years inflated house prices, massively increased unemployment, smashed the Unions and supported Globalization which has in turn demolished our industries. As citizens, if we are opposed to rampant capitalism what do we do as this is the model that appears to be supported by all of our political parties and that corporations hold all the cards and all the power?

I know you'll dismiss this with another meaningless sentence but it would be good to read something of substance.

 

[Anonymous]

does anyone actually know any activists whove made change happen cause i do and they did it by having legal knowledge and putting themselves at legal risk. basically they sued the state several times and won almost all there cases. they also are very much voters. making change, even learning how, can be a full time job people dont wanna invest in and yes there is risk to yourself a lot of the time.

 

[Anonymous]

Again, you've told us that change is possible, told me to go out and make it happen but you have no idea how to make it happen. Let's have your ideas. So far they amount to go and vote and you still haven't told us how that will make a blind bit of difference.

At present we seem to be following the US model of Capitalism. The Government has over the last 30 or so years inflated house prices, massively increased unemployment, smashed the Unions and supported Globalization which has in turn demolished our industries. As citizens, if we are opposed to rampant capitalism what do we do as this is the model that appears to be supported by all of our political parties and that corporations hold all the cards and all the power?

I know you'll dismiss this with another meaningless sentence but it would be good to read something of substance.

Seriously? You're still insistent that if I don't spoon-feed you the answers to your questions about how to change/improve society, that that some how proves that it can't be done? That's something of a non-sequitur. I'm not about to reinvent the wheel for you, Charlie. Thankfully, though, I don't need to....

Significant political change - in the UK, at least - doesn't take place in the short term. I'm doing you the credit of assuming you're sufficiently intelligent to grasp that elementary point.

Democratic/evolutionary socialism, as a strain of wider socialist ideology, emerged in British society with the formation of organisations like the Fabian Society in the 1870s, but it wasn't until the middle of the twentieth century that the ideals for which they stood became popular enough to give rise to a majority Labour government that could successfully enact policies that would, to some extent, ameliorate the worst excesses of capitalism. It took neo-liberal Conservatives a further thirty years to undermine the then prevailing paradigm of welfare-capitalism, culminating in the election of Thatcher in 1979. To take a more topical example: the SNP was formed, with a vision of Scottish "independence" in the 1930s, but didn't secure even a single, stable seat in Westminster until the late-60s. As recently as the 2005 General Election, it had the support of less than 18% of the Scottish electorate, and yet, three weeks from today, a referendum will be held, at the behest of the SNP, to determine whether Scotland should secede from the Union.

All of the above changes in British politics and society - like them or not - took time to evolve. More pointedly, they required effort, persistence, dedication and commitment from the respective protagonists: real, live human agents, acting out of principled determination.

In the end, society only gets better if the people who recognise the shortcomings of that society actually do something about it. If those people prefer, instead, to disengage, then what right have they to hope that others will do it for them?

Insist on the impossible.