Does "Ambitious Outsiders" threaten child-rape?

[TheReader]

Ditto! I can't understand why I had to read almost 2 pages of thread before someone pointed this out.

- - -

I can't believe I wrote all of that stuff to try and explain an off the cuff post about a song I don't even particularly like! That's what happens when you get bored I suppose.

Stop pickin' on Crystal Geezer! Her beliefs are no more crazy than organised religion (to me at any rate). I'm going into hiding now before I get flamed.

 

[TheReader]

And as for what Morrissey may or may not have conceded in an interview, pay no attention to what Morrissey says in interviews, trust me he doesn't.

Just before I go into hiding: yes, I should know better about believing what he says in interviews I suppose. A while ago, someone on some thread - can't remeber which one, was posting scans of early Smiths interviews. The fist two posted, which were conducted a few months apart, directly contradicted each other on at least three issues.

 

[King Leer]

That live rendition posted earlier was quite hot. This track and Sorrow Will Come (not on UK edition) both have a macabre theatricality. They're interesting tracks but they definitely didn't help Maladjusted's chances, along with a slew of other factors.

As problematic as it is, I don't think dealing drugs to kids is enough to "keep the population down". I always took it to mean murdering them. Maybe Morrissey had watched Fritz Lang's M.

 

[Media Whore]

Stop pickin' on Crystal Geezer! Her beliefs are no more crazy than organised religion (to me at any rate). I'm going into hiding now before I get flamed.

I'm not going to flame you but is there a reason why Crystal, unlike every other poster here, is not subject to question? She brought up her sign reading (which by her own admission had nothing to do with the initial intention of this thread) and then combats with personal attacks on another poster. This is ok? Why? Because she see signs? I was thinking about this and it reminded me of someone. Then it came to me.



Interesting that you compare it to religion. I was reading a post by nogodnomasters and s/he said "Religion, moreso than anything else, is proclaimed to be beyond the scope of conversation. Unlike sports, science, art, politics, and everything else we have to give religion a wide berth. We can't discuss it, we can't question it, and we certainly can't criticize it. We need new rules of conversation. We need to break down these barriers and have the guts to call a spade a spade."

I know this is taking this thread OT for which I apologize. To get the thread back on course, other than the trolling first post I think everyone is both right and wrong in their interpretation. That's the pleasure in the work. There is no definitive answer.

 

[TheReader]

I'm not going to flame you but is there a reason why Crystal, unlike every other poster here, is not subject to question? She brought up her sign reading (which by her own admission had nothing to do with the initial intention of this thread) and then combats with personal attacks on another poster. This is ok? Why? Because she see signs? I was thinking about this and it reminded me of someone. Then it came to me.



Interesting that you compare it to religion. I was reading a post by nogodnomasters and s/he said "Religion, moreso than anything else, is proclaimed to be beyond the scope of conversation. Unlike sports, science, art, politics, and everything else we have to give religion a wide berth. We can't discuss it, we can't question it, and we certainly can't criticize it. We need new rules of conversation. We need to break down these barriers and have the guts to call a spade a spade.

I know this is taking this thread OT for which I apologize. To get the thread back on course, other than the trolling first post I think everyone is both right and wrong in their interpretation. That's the pleasure in the work. There is no definitive answer.

I pretty much agree with eveything you said, but I just felt like it was going to turn into a bit of a CG bashing session,and it did all seem a bit lob-sided, so I said something. We should be able to talk about religion and beliefs more openly - definitely, but no one really was talking about them, they were jut dismissing her and calling her psychotic. Which they are entitled to do of course - but I like CG so thought I'd put my 2 pennys worth in!

 

[TheReader]

That live rendition posted earlier was quite hot. This track and Sorrow Will Come (not on UK edition) both have a macabre theatricality. They're interesting tracks but they definitely didn't help Maladjusted's chances, along with a slew of other factors.

As problematic as it is, I don't think dealing drugs to kids is enough to "keep the population down". I always took it to mean murdering them. Maybe Morrissey had watched Fritz Lang's M.

Where's the live version posted? Will give it a listen as the album version does nothing for me. Thanks.

 

[Kewpie]

Re: Ambitious Outsiders live version

Where's the live version posted? Will give it a listen as the album version does nothing for me. Thanks.

Possibly KL meant this?

 

[Amy]

Where's the live version posted? Will give it a listen as the album version does nothing for me. Thanks.

The live clip is posted on the first page of this thread

 

[Mr Reynolds]

As problematic as it is, I don't think dealing drugs to kids is enough to "keep the population down". I always took it to mean murdering them. Maybe Morrissey had watched Fritz Lang's M.

Surely there is a far greater incidence of drug related deaths compared to murder?

And the line 'keeping the population down' can be read both ways - literally the amount of deaths caused - and/or - the grief and depression caused by the deaths in the face of society's impotence to do much about it.

 

[TheReader]

The live clip is posted on the first page of this thread

Doh! I'm viewing on my phone so the vids don't show

I don't want to go back to the start - it's like a bad dream.

 

[TheReader]

Re: Ambitious Outsiders live version

Possibly KL meant this?

Thanks Kewpie.

 

[CrookedLittleVein]

Ambitious Outsiders is quite clearly about drug dealers targeting kids. As clear as the nose on a Roman face...

It's one interpretation, but there's nothing 'obvious' about it. In fact, there's nothing to support the theory at all.

Why would you bolt-lock your doors or alarm your car against drug dealers?

"Quick, bolt-lock the door! Before the drug dealers get in and make us buy drugs from them!"

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'll stick with the psychopath theory, for now, but I'm open to well-reasoned persuasion.

 

[Mr Reynolds]

It's one interpretation, but there's nothing 'obvious' about it. In fact, there's nothing to support the theory at all.

Why would you bolt-lock your doors or alarm your car against drug dealers?

"Quick, bolt-lock the door! Before the drug dealers get in and make us buy drugs from them!"

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'll stick with the psychopath theory, for now, but I'm open to well-reasoned persuasion.

Well...seeing as drugs are pretty much 'the' major cause of crime according to most modern analysis - especially burglary - I'd say bolt locking your doors and alarming your cars pretty much emphasises this aspect of Morrissey's theme here.

 

[CrookedLittleVein]

Well...seeing as drugs are pretty much 'the' major cause of crime according to most modern analysis - especially burglary - I'd say bolt locking your doors and alarming your cars pretty much emphasises this aspect of Morrissey's theme here.

Bolt-locking your doors against drug addicts, yes. But the 'we' of the song are (according to your analysis) drug dealers.

I'm not saying yours isn't a valid interpretation (with many Morrissey songs you only have your imagination and intuition to guide you), it's just that I don't see any 'obvious' evidence to support it or dissuade me from my own largely imaginative/intuitive interpretation.

 

[Mr Reynolds]

Bolt-locking your doors against drug addicts, yes. But the 'we' of the song are (according to your analysis) drug dealers.

I'm not saying yours isn't a valid interpretation (with many Morrissey songs you only have your imagination and intuition to guide you), it's just that I don't see any 'obvious' evidence to support it or dissuade me from my own largely imaginative/intuitive interpretation.

Yes but they go hand in hand don't they. The Addict and the Supplier. Can't have one without t'other. And the 'ambitious outsiders' moving in to our local area are creating the cause for us to have to bolt lock our doors.

I can tell you that alarming my car never made the slightest difference as they smashed the window and were off with my stereo regardless!!!

 

[King Leer]

I'd guess murders of children (the targets in the lyric) outnumber children dying through drugs (as children). Plus it ensures they will never procreate, whereas adult addicts killed through drugs may already have. Also, school bus riding kids? I know dealers hook them young, but seems off.

The "population" line could indeed be read both ways, but I tend to think he meant it literally (numbers) based on the rest of the lyric.

Surely there is a far greater incidence of drug related deaths compared to murder?

And the line 'keeping the population down' can be read both ways - literally the amount of deaths caused - and/or - the grief and depression caused by the deaths in the face of society's impotence to do much about it.

 

[Mr Reynolds]

I'd guess murders of children (the targets in the lyric) outnumber children dying through drugs (as children). Plus it ensures they will never procreate, whereas adult addicts killed through drugs may already have. Also, school bus riding kids? I know dealers hook them young, but seems off.

The "population" line could indeed be read both ways, but I tend to think he meant it literally (numbers) based on the rest of the lyric.

Children who become users with their peers at school age may develop into hardened addicts. The ambitious outsiders target them young - from literally outside the school gates. This certainly happened/happens here in the UK. When Morrissey wrote this song there was wide press coverage of pushers who were targeting schools with Ecstacy tabs specially designed with logos on them that might appeal sprcifically to younger people.

This song is clearly talking about the frustration and impotence of society in the face of drug crime. Or I'm a budgie's uncle!

 

[Claudia2006]

Huh.... first, in the very post you're taking flack about you said this:

The following is not lyric analysis but crazy Morrissey analysis so feel free to skip this.

Then you said:

You know what? I read a language. I'm not reading Morrissey, I don't know what he had for lunch or who he's f***ing or whether or not he's be offended by an illustration of a vagina, I gather the latter from the wit of his lyrics, something people too wrapped up in his cute smile and back dimples seem to forget about when they assume he'd be offended by a dry humor joke. And about my "reading," you should ask me about the language. You should ask me how I learned it, the person who taught me, the trials I went through to learn it, yet all you want to do is call me psychotic and self righteously mock the crazy one because your closed-minded linear reality is superior to an alternative thinking one. You are ordinary, Claudia2006. If you ever wonder who Morrissey mocks the most, it's you.

So, which is it?

I know my theories are bonkers, but such is the territory when dealing with understanding and trying to explain the mystery tradition, something that Morrissey, whether he likes it or not, is very much in line with. I am not bonkers. I get frustrated when people attack me before considering my theory but I'm an easy target for bullies. I have a normal life, am a normal person and if the mothership came to pick me up I'd take a pass. I very much like it here on earth. And yes, a language does exist. So, anyway. That's all I have to say. And as for the whole of the song, it's about a people who live amongst the people without them knowing it. I realize this stretches beyond a realistic grasp of the song, but the "keeping the population down" part is most likely a reference to Typhon, the feared mythical God who Zues overthrows. Typhon's like the King of the trolls when it comes to reading this language. Morrissey sings about thugs as an homage to him because he deals with him while he reads. Did he know this as he wrote the song? I don't know, I don't think so. But perhaps he sees it now. His discogrphy, his own work prepares him for his stupid "great work" he has to do since he's like an English whirling dervish with a microphone, a chosen one so to speak. Having said all that I will now get these out of the way for you all, go get some breakfast and be off to work.

I'll see your and raise you some and :guffaw:

And in conclusion, in case anyone cares why I bother to reply at all, I'll offer a quote from a movie: "Go sell crazy somewhere else. We're all stocked up here."

 

[King Leer]

Although the media tried to demonize it through a few sensational cases, it's pretty common knowledge that deaths through MDMA toxicity are a pretty minor statistic. And I'd still argue that the kids targeted with cute-looking tablets were above school bus age.

More that all that I've always felt that Morrissey cares very little about the world of drugs (other than prescription ones). The grime of it isn't part of his romance of crime. Sunny, a great and sad song, was quite realistic about the effects.

Children who become users with their peers at school age may develop into hardened addicts. The ambitious outsiders target them young - from literally outside the school gates. This certainly happened/happens here in the UK. When Morrissey wrote this song there was wide press coverage of pushers who were targeting schools with Ecstacy tabs specially designed with logos on them that might appeal sprcifically to younger people.

This song is clearly talking about the frustration and impotence of society in the face of drug crime. Or I'm a budgie's uncle!

 

[Sim Tappertit]

To answer the title thread.

No, but the lyrics do threaten to irk Neil Young's lawyer. Listen to the first verse of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiKJQeG5E2o