RACISM

[Cili Barnes]

I'm sure most everyone here on this messageboard has read the sickening racist posts under those news bits on the homepage and I'm also sure that some of you who posted a racist message (or two) are reading this right now.

You [racists] disgust me. I can't even adequately express how much you do.

Like no other band I've ever loved, I've always considered fans of the Smiths to be considerate and friendly. It just seems likely and logical considering the aesthetic presented by the band. Needless to say, I was taken aback by much of what I read and I can only hope that David exercises his right to remove unsavory messages from his website. These messages are more than just stains on his site, and I hope they are gone very soon.

I understand that the anonymity of the internet affords a sometimes unhealthy amount of self-indulgence but I think people need to snap out of it and realize that racism is something which should NOT be indulged in - ever. With every prejudiced idea you entertain in your mind you plant a little seed which germinates without your realizing it until it's grown into something terrible.

I'm sorry to be talking about this when I can tell there are a great many people still buzzing from seeing Steven in concert (I enjoyed it as well), but I just felt that it should indeed be mentioned. I like to use ignorance or stupidity as an excuse for racist thought, but when I read messages like "Oswald Mosley"'s, who is obviously an articulate and intelligent person (whatever his/her real name is), I feel very frustrated because I haven't a clue as to what the answer is.

I find it very disheartening to find that racism has found its way into this website. The sheer audacity to publicly post such vile messages is amazing to me. You should be very ashamed of yourselves.

I am so embarassed to be white skinned and British-born right now. If you're black, Mexican, or any other race who's been offended by any of those messages, I'm sorry. I know that I should ignore those bigots but I can't.

 

[David T.]

Cili,

Thanks for voicing your concerns. Another person also alerted me to the postings and I apologize for letting the thread go on for so long -- it's out.

 

[gladioli]

Once and for all

Racism and any form of intolerance does not belong here or anywhere for that matter. Thanks Cili for your message, it's time the tale were told...

 

[elizabeth-mary]

Dear Cili,

Your comments upon the delicate subject of Racism were on target. I must tell you & the world here itself that, ppl. have been expressing their forms of racism to me b/c:
1) the job I work at, it is "required" to be in recovery and I am not so, ppl. are racist against me b/c, they claim I have lead a "sheltered life".
2) ppl. esp. men, are also racist against me b/c, even though I have a nice hairdo, obtained somewhat of a brain (3 college degrees & numerous certifications) & have a shape like the model, Emme' that I am called a racist remark everyday. (ruff=really ugly fat friend or duff=dumb ugly fat friend)

I just appreciated your thoughts. I find that you are totally genuine too, b/c, of your examples.

Please, keep the crusade to stop the hate alive. Thanks again, Cili!

VIOLETS BEFORE VIOLENCE.

 

[Spinster]

THIS was written by the same person who encouraged someone on this message board to commit suicide a couple of weeks back?

> I'm sure most everyone here on this messageboard has read the
> sickening racist posts under those news bits on the homepage and
> I'm also sure that some of you who posted a racist message (or
> two) are reading this right now.

> You [racists] disgust me. I can't even adequately express how
> much you do.

> Like no other band I've ever loved, I've always considered fans
> of the Smiths to be considerate and friendly. It just seems
> likely and logical considering the aesthetic presented by the
> band. Needless to say, I was taken aback by much of what I read
> and I can only hope that David exercises his right to remove
> unsavory messages from his website. These messages are more than
> just stains on his site, and I hope they are gone very soon.

> I understand that the anonymity of the internet affords a
> sometimes unhealthy amount of self-indulgence but I think people
> need to snap out of it and realize that racism is something
> which should NOT be indulged in - ever. With every prejudiced
> idea you entertain in your mind you plant a little seed which
> germinates without your realizing it until it's grown into
> something terrible.

> I'm sorry to be talking about this when I can tell there are a
> great many people still buzzing from seeing Steven in concert (I
> enjoyed it as well), but I just felt that it should indeed be
> mentioned. I like to use ignorance or stupidity as an excuse for
> racist thought, but when I read messages like "Oswald
> Mosley"'s, who is obviously an articulate and intelligent
> person (whatever his/her real name is), I feel very frustrated
> because I haven't a clue as to what the answer is.

> I find it very disheartening to find that racism has found its
> way into this website. The sheer audacity to publicly post such
> vile messages is amazing to me. You should be very ashamed of
> yourselves.

> I am so embarassed to be white skinned and British-born right
> now. If you're black, Mexican, or any other race who's been
> offended by any of those messages, I'm sorry. I know that I
> should ignore those bigots but I can't.

 

[hnia]

> THIS was written by the same person who encouraged someone on
> this message board to commit suicide a couple of weeks back?

Really, I guess she didn't think the person was black..

 

[hnia]

> Dear Cili,

> Your comments upon the delicate subject of Racism were on
> target. I must tell you & the world here itself that, ppl.
> have been expressing their forms of racism to me b/c:
> 1) the job I work at, it is "required" to be in
> recovery and I am not so, ppl. are racist against me b/c, they
> claim I have lead a "sheltered life".
> 2) ppl. esp. men, are also racist against me b/c, even though I
> have a nice hairdo, obtained somewhat of a brain (3 college
> degrees & numerous certifications) & have a shape like
> the model, Emme' that I am called a racist remark everyday.
> (ruff=really ugly fat friend or duff=dumb ugly fat friend)

> I just appreciated your thoughts. I find that you are totally
> genuine too, b/c, of your examples.

> Please, keep the crusade to stop the hate alive. Thanks again,
> Cili!

> VIOLETS BEFORE VIOLENCE.

I don't understand your point here? what does emme' mean and who is calling your "supermodel" body fat?
and your somewhat of a brain dumb?

 

[Sylvia Barnes]

> THIS was written by the same person who encouraged someone on
> this message board to commit suicide a couple of weeks back?

Yes. And if you had read my reason as to why I did that, I think things would have been clear enough to not ask this question. If there are archives, look up my message. I wasn't telling someone to kill him/herself unless he/she wanted to. I was saying to take the initiative to either go quietly or make changes within yourself or outside of yourself in order to bring yourself closer to your happiness. If a person is going to exist immersed in misery (true misery/depression), a person should be proactive in making changes for the better. Being a victim is not a solution. Ever read Nietzsche or Sartre? "Existence preceeds essence" - I believe that.

There comes a point when a choice must be made and it is the choice of life, death (dependant on how depressed you are), or stasis (which is essentially death by non-life). If you choose stasis and want to die, I said that it wouldn't be the worst thing to commit suicide.

I have no problem with people that want to hurt [only] themselves in such a way. It has nearly no bearing on society as a whole. Racism is something else entirely. It's impact CAN be felt by all of society and it's an important issue to be aware of because we all have it's insidious programming deep within our brains. It's up to every individual to choose to be above it.

Look, I never said that I fight every fight or that I'm an angel. If you want to diminish my feelings toward bigotry because you don't agree with my other viewpoint, that's fine but I think you should've been better-informed before you tried to insinuate that I was being inconsistent. I know, I'm being defensive but at least I'm aware of it.

 

[hnia]

> Yes. And if you had read my reason as to why I did that, I think
> things would have been clear enough to not ask this question. If
> there are archives, look up my message. I wasn't telling someone
> to kill him/herself unless he/she wanted to. I was saying to
> take the initiative to either go quietly or make changes within
> yourself or outside of yourself in order to bring yourself
> closer to your happiness. If a person is going to exist immersed
> in misery (true misery/depression), a person should be proactive
> in making changes for the better. Being a victim is not a
> solution. Ever read Nietzsche or Sartre? "Existence
> preceeds essence" - I believe that.

> There comes a point when a choice must be made and it is the
> choice of life, death (dependant on how depressed you are), or
> stasis (which is essentially death by non-life). If you choose
> stasis and want to die, I said that it wouldn't be the worst
> thing to commit suicide.

> I have no problem with people that want to hurt [only]
> themselves in such a way. It has nearly no bearing on society as
> a whole. Racism is something else entirely. It's impact CAN be
> felt by all of society and it's an important issue to be aware
> of because we all have it's insidious programming deep within
> our brains. It's up to every individual to choose to be above
> it.

> Look, I never said that I fight every fight or that I'm an
> angel. If you want to diminish my feelings toward bigotry
> because you don't agree with my other viewpoint, that's fine but
> I think you should've been better-informed before you tried to
> insinuate that I was being inconsistent. I know, I'm being
> defensive but at least I'm aware of it.

Reading Nietzsche and Satre and agreeing with them are two different things. Some of Nietzsche's writing can be extremely misinterupted and used in evil ways.
Are you an elitist, but not a racist?

I for one feel that no one should be censored on this board no matter
how badly I disagree with what is said. And, truthfully, you can't comment on my experiences with race relations. Nor could I yours! Some of my experiences have been horrible with Black people, others wonderful. Am I racist? No, but I live in a diverse population of hispanics, blacks and anglos and having said that I enjoy the intermix of everything. But, when it comes to my wife....
I hate the fact that she can't hardly go to the store without some guys threatening/following her. And, this makes me very angry. Unfortunately, most of her stalkers are either black or hispanic.
And co-workers? That's a whole nother story..

E

 

[Cili Barnes]

> Reading Nietzsche and Satre and agreeing with them are two
> different things. Some of Nietzsche's writing can be extremely
> misinterupted and used in evil ways.

So can the bible. I agree with you though. People have always found ways to pervert other people's ideas. Herbert Spencer's "social Darwinism" is a perfect example of this perversion. Not to mention that he was clever enough to ensure that, through naming it social DARWINism, he attributed this injustice to someone else. Oh, if only I had that foresight. Also, I'm not an expert on their works. I just raised a point of Sartre's which I found agreement with.

> Are you an elitist, but not a racist?

I am neither elitist nor racist, just unemployed.

> I for one feel that no one should be censored on this board no
> matter how badly I disagree with what is said.

I'd hold that opinion as well if this were truly a public messageboard but remember that this is not. This whole website and everything within it belongs to David Tseng (sp?). He clearly states that he holds the right to delete anything which he damn well wants to delete. Well, not in those exact words but you get the picture.

> And, truthfully, you can't comment on my experiences with race
> relations.

But I thought you said that no one should be censored on this board... Just kidding.

> Nor could I yours!

Well, you can comment on them. I just might not jump sides.

> Some of my experiences have been horrible with Black people, others
> wonderful. Am I racist? No, but I live in a

If some of your experiences have been wonderful as well as horrible, why do you feel the need to take notice of them at all? You see? That's my point. Prejudice has a way of finding back doors if one is not vigilant. That's why it spreads so easily through social interactions, and that is why I am so vehemently opposed to racist people.

> I hate the fact that she can't hardly go to the store without
> some guys threatening/following her. And, this makes me very
> angry. Unfortunately, most of her stalkers are either black or
> hispanic.

> And co-workers? That's a whole nother story..

Or perhaps you're far more affected when it's a black or hispanic man who harasses your wife. I could never say because I don't know you but there is a lot of psychology at play here. Like I said, we must all be vigilant.

This we/they mentality may have proven useful 4 million years ago when we all lived within small tribes made up of mainly kin, but it is completely detrimental in this day and age when we're living in culturally diverse cities.

I'm starting to feel as though I'm atop a soapbox so I feel very self-conscious now. Look, I don't claim to have all the answers. I just have opinions and reasons for why I have them. i don't want people to feel that I'm attempting to lecture them but I want to clearly state my feelings.

 

[hnia]

> So can the bible. I agree with you though. People have always
> found ways to pervert other people's ideas. Herbert Spencer's
> "social Darwinism" is a perfect example of this
> perversion. Not to mention that he was clever enough to ensure
> that, through naming it social DARWINism, he attributed this
> injustice to someone else. Oh, if only I had that foresight.
> Also, I'm not an expert on their works. I just raised a point of
> Sartre's which I found agreement with.
I'm not an expert either! I think we agree on this one.
> I am neither elitist nor racist, just unemployed.

I smart girl like you unemployed?

> I'd hold that opinion as well if this were truly a public
> messageboard but remember that this is not. This whole website
> and everything within it belongs to David Tseng (sp?). He
> clearly states that he holds the right to delete anything which
> he damn well wants to delete. Well, not in those exact words but
> you get the picture.

> But I thought you said that no one should be censored on this
> board... Just kidding.

I never realized that the board had a home as such.

> Well, you can comment on them. I just might not jump sides.

> If some of your experiences have been wonderful as well as
> horrible, why do you feel the need to take notice of them at
> all? You see? That's my point. Prejudice has a way of finding
> back doors if one is not vigilant. That's why it spreads so
> easily through social interactions, and that is why I am so
> vehemently opposed to racist people.

> Or perhaps you're far more affected when it's a black or
> hispanic man who harasses your wife. I could never say because I
> don't know you but there is a lot of psychology at play here.
> Like I said, we must all be vigilant.

i wish everyone would quit, but 9 out of 10 it is a black male,
the other 1 of 10 hispanic.

> This we/they mentality may have proven useful 4 million years
> ago when we all lived within small tribes made up of mainly kin,
> but it is completely detrimental in this day and age when we're
> living in culturally diverse cities.

> I'm starting to feel as though I'm atop a soapbox so I feel very
> self-conscious now. Look, I don't claim to have all the answers.
> I just have opinions and reasons for why I have them. i don't
> want people to feel that I'm attempting to lecture them but I
> want to clearly state my feelings.

I think I understand your viewpoint well said!!
touche'
However, if your going to get on your soapbox again reconsider your opinion about suicide, usually people are crying out for someone to notice them in the world. And, if you have ever lost a friend to suicide i think you would of done anything to convince him/her to stay around. On old friend of mine has been dead about 8 years now, in fact, he re-introduced me to the smiths. I think he made a horrible decision and I would never tell anyone I mean anyone to stop
living. What else is there? (don't answer that)
E

 

[Spinster]

Re: SUICIDE

> Yes. And if you had read my reason as to why I did that, I think
> things would have been clear enough to not ask this question.

I did read your response. And i still disagree with it.

If
> there are archives, look up my message. I wasn't telling someone
> to kill him/herself unless he/she wanted to. I was saying to
> take the initiative to either go quietly or make changes within
> yourself or outside of yourself in order to bring yourself
> closer to your happiness. If a person is going to exist immersed
> in misery (true misery/depression), a person should be proactive
> in making changes for the better. Being a victim is not a
> solution. Ever read Nietzsche or Sartre? "Existence
> preceeds essence" - I believe that.

> There comes a point when a choice must be made and it is the
> choice of life, death (dependant on how depressed you are), or
> stasis (which is essentially death by non-life). If you choose
> stasis and want to die, I said that it wouldn't be the worst
> thing to commit suicide.

Hmmmm...really? How very Kevorkian of you.

> I have no problem with people that want to hurt [only]
> themselves in such a way. It has nearly no bearing on society as
> a whole.

Oh no? What about the family, friends, loved ones etc. that the deceased person has left behind? Do you believe it has no affect on them whatsoever? As long as the action of one person affects others besides themselves, i would assume that it does have an impact on society. Maybe not as large an impact as you would see fit, in the case of a person's suicide, but nonetheless it would deeply affect the people associated with that person.

Racism is something else entirely. It's impact CAN be
> felt by all of society and it's an important issue to be aware
> of because we all have it's insidious programming deep within
> our brains. It's up to every individual to choose to be above
> it.

> Look, I never said that I fight every fight or that I'm an
> angel. If you want to diminish my feelings toward bigotry
> because you don't agree with my other viewpoint, that's fine but
> I think you should've been better-informed before you tried to
> insinuate that I was being inconsistent. I know, I'm being
> defensive but at least I'm aware of it.

Just because i disagree with your views on the suicidally depressed does not make me a racist. I do agree with your stance on racism. However, i find it perplexing because it totally contrasts with your view on suicidal people. I'm not misinformed...i just don't see things in the same light as you.

 

[satan's cheerleader]

thoughts

i didn't read any of the messages that came before this one, but i wanted to say a couple of things...

no, you shouldn't ignore bigots. they are to be confronted. they are inexcuseable and not to be tolerated.

secondly, in the many years i have followed the smiths and morrissey, i have met countless fans who are neither considerate nor friendly. i have met many unsavory fans...racists, sexists, homophobes...some of the most arrogant, selfish, unpleasant people i have known.

several people who frequent this site are basically just assh*les at heart...

don't assume that because people are morrissey fans, they are good people. you are sure to be disappointed.

 

[Che]

Re: SUICIDE

Nothing to do with Alan Vega then?

 

[key slapper]

you hate yourself and you want to die

I thought you were just trying to be funny in sick kind of way. 'Nobody would care if YOU killed yourself'. But if you read enough books you can learn to justify practically anything, I guess.




I don't usually wear this much make up

 

[Cili]

> I smart girl like you unemployed?

Yes, but thankfully it is by choice so I still have a stitch of dignity. I have the option to be jobless, so I chose it.

> I never realized that the board had a home as such.

Yup. It David's.

> However, if your going to get on your soapbox again

[huff] Alright... here I go... it's rather tall...

> reconsider
> your opinion about suicide, usually people are crying out for
> someone to notice them in the world. And, if you have ever lost
> a friend to suicide i think you would of done anything to
> convince him/her to stay around.

I almost lost myself to it and I am my closest confidant. I still hold my position though. I understand what you're saying, and I do feel that yours is the more humane stance, but I still feel that there are far too many people on this planet to force people that do not want to live... er, to live.

> On old friend of mine has been
> dead about 8 years now, in fact, he re-introduced me to the
> smiths. I think he made a horrible decision and I would never
> tell anyone I mean anyone to stop
> living.

But that's you. You weren't experiencing whatever it was that he/she was experiencing. Ultimately, if life is horrible for the individual, then life is horrible. It may be the opposite in your eyes but to the one who suffers, it makes no difference what other people see.

It's all a matter of viewpoints really. The opinion I hold sounds very callous, and I'm not saying that it isn't, but to me it makes perfect sense. I'm not the coldest person believe it or not, but I do draw very clear lines in my life. If you truly want to die, I think you can and possibly should. I know, it sounds terrible but that's what I feel because I've lived it so I can say it. And I do.

 

[Barnes]

Re: a very hairy subject

> I did read your response. And i still disagree with it.

Understandable. I've not known many who've felt as I do who didn't possess great bitterness or anger. It doesn't really make a difference whether or not we agree anyway. I hear you and you hear me. That's all that matters.

> Hmmmm...really? How very Kevorkian of you.

If you're short sighted enough, maybe you'd think so. I think I've explained myself enough and if you still don't understand, then maybe you can't or refuse to. To refer to me as "Kevorkian" is almost ridiculously reactive and impish.

I wouldn't assist in anyone's death and I don't immediately proclaim "suicide!" everytime I hear that someone's depressed, but if a person truly wants to die I don't see the reason why I should stop him/her. I'm not even sure that it's possible. For my selfish reasons? I would be sad if a loved one died. I am human believe it or not. I might even be scarred by it, but all the while I would have it in my heart that the person took his or her life into his or her hands and hopefully death came with dignity in taking control when it seemed all but lost.

I know that you might have a problem with me using the word "dignity" associated with the subject of suicide but be careful not to press your beliefs onto another. I once saw a video where a malnourished, toothless, and homeless American man was counting his dollar bills and as he did so, he told the documentary maker that all he wanted was to "enjoy [his] life". At this, everyone sort of akwardly laughed at how strange this statement sounded, given that everyone felt pity for this 'wretched' individual. Then I realized that it wasn't fair that I thought of this man as pitiful. If in his eyes, he was happy, then who am I to say that he's not just because I wouldn't be if I were in his shoes (which I'm pretty sure he had)? I saw a nobility in that he lived his life exactly as he pleased - and it DID please him. The point is, don't be so quick to make decisions for other people. Even if it's unimaginable to you, you must accept other viewpoints (albeit not adopt them).

Believe me. By allowing a suicidal person to choose life over death and not force it upon them is a much more permanent solution. If one is clinically ill, that is another story but I'm not talking about that. Ultimately, your life is in your own hands, my life is in my own hands, and another person's life is in another person's hands. It's our lives, we get to define them, and you have no right to declare choices that have been made as wrong.

> Oh no? What about the family, friends, loved ones etc. that the
> deceased person has left behind? Do you believe it has no affect
> on them whatsoever? As long as the action of one person affects
> others besides themselves, i would assume that it does have an
> impact on society. Maybe not as large an impact as you would see
> fit, in the case of a person's suicide, but nonetheless it would
> deeply affect the people associated with that person.

It would definitely affect friends and family but that is not "society". I try to think on a larger level. If you want to discuss the tragedies that families have to endure everyday, the list goes on and on and on and on. I'm not saying that it's not significant to them, but it's not significant to society as a whole. People die everyday for as many reasons as there are deaths, but the population exists largely unaffected. I can't worry about the way other people live their lives if it doesn't affect me. Please don't take me 100% literally on that because I do say it very softly but I do say it. It is terrible to read but the reason behind it is undeniable.

It's not the death that hurts me as much as it is the suffering.

> Just because i disagree with your views on the suicidally
> depressed does not make me a racist.

? Who called you a racist?

> I do agree with your stance on racism. However, i find it perplexing
> because it totally contrasts with your view on suicidal people.

I'm trying, yet I can't see to make this logic sensible. I'm going to insult you a little bit now so please be prepared. I don't say this in anger... I think the only reason you feel I'm being incongruous is because you're a simple woman. I know that I'm being somewhat pompous by saying that, but I don't mean to. Honestly. Truly, truly. I say it matter-of-factly because it is my opinion. I can understand your not agreeing with my views, but I can't understand how you, on a cognitive level, can't see the correlation of my statements. I know that you'll be angry by this and you have every right to be but I had to say it. I am not elitist! I am not elitist! It's just something I notice. Oh, I know that I'm gonna be in very hot water after some of you read this...

> I'm not misinformed...i just don't see things in the same light as
> you.

Fair enough.

 

[Spinster, The Sweet and Tender Simpleton]

My *yawn* simple retort...

What's wrong with simplicity? I believe in todays's complex society, it's actually more beneficial to lead a somewhat simple life.
So, you think i'm simple. I've actually been told by most who know me that i'm quite complex. It just doesn't come across that way in my posts, i know, due to the fact that i'm unable to fully express myself in words. Oh, i also have a job, so i don't have much time or energy to devote to developing my writing talent. Actually, i don't give a toss what you think of me really. I can tell that you're extremely intelligent, but i do think that you definitely are an elitist. Why else would you have to keep reminding us that you're not? If you didn't care if people though you were an elitist, you wouldn't have to keep repeating yourself, now would you?

Racism, sexism, ageism and the like are all human rights issues. The problem i have with you, Cili, is that although you claim to be a proponent in the fight against discrimination, is that how can someone that claims to be so compassionate about human welfare tell someone so callously to end their life, as you did? There's a difference between being merciful towards a suffering person who wants to end their life, and in telling them; "go ahead, end it...no one cares... just don't make a mess." Ick!

Oh, you also have a "been there, done that" mentality towards the suicidally depressed. It seems to me that you have forgotten where you've came from. That period in my life is truly one i will never forget. Suicidal people often believe that their suffering will never end, and that life can never possibly get better. If they stick out the hard knocks in life, like i did, they find that it does get better eventually, if they work at it.

Well, i'd better go. I have to go to work now. A lot of people don't have the choice not to, you know.

 

[Cili Baby]

Re: Your *yawn* simple retort...

> What's wrong with simplicity? I believe in todays's complex
> society, it's actually more beneficial to lead a somewhat simple
> life.

You know what? I think I agree. I have a very bad tendancy to think myself in circles all the time. The saddest part is, many of my thoughts are polluted with OTHER people's ideas. Sad if you think about it. I've always respected geniuses with apriori thought and I am definitely not one of those.

> So, you think i'm simple. I've actually been told by most who
> know me that i'm quite complex.

You may very well be. Funnily enough, I awoke this morning to find that I had my foot in my mouth. When I inquired about how it got there, I remembered my message from last night.

> Oh, i also have a job, so i don't have much time or energy to devote
> to developing my writing talent.

Ouch... but warranted. Sort of. I don't feel badly about it though. These days I spend my time very well I think. Most of my waking hours are spent trying to look like Audrey Hepburn. It's the British curse of either loving or hating America.

> Actually, i don't give a toss what you think of me
> really. I can tell that you're extremely intelligent, but i do
> think that you definitely are an elitist. Why else would you
> have to keep reminding us that you're not?

Because I'm not. I wouldn't jump to conclusions. In this country, the English always seem somewhat pretentious. It's our funny way of talking.

> If you didn't care if
> people though you were an elitist, you wouldn't have to keep
> repeating yourself, now would you?

I DO care if I people call me elitist. I never said I didn't. That's why I was repeating it. Since I've come to America, I've become very self-conscious about this. It's mainly a running joke, but it still bothers me a bit because I feel singled out. I'd be much more comfortable with people constantly telling me that I have nice breasts or a happy smile. "Elitist" is for men.

> The problem i have with you, Cili, is that although you claim to
> be a proponent in the fight against discrimination, is that how
> can someone that claims to be so compassionate about human
> welfare tell someone so callously to end their life, as you did?

Do I have to explain this again? It may have been fragmented, but the complete answer to your question has been posted on the messageboard.

> There's a difference between being merciful towards a suffering
> person who wants to end their life, and in telling them;
> "go ahead, end it...no one cares... just don't make a
> mess." Ick!

Yeah, I do have to bow to that one to a degree. I have nothing to say in my defense. I think I felt too detached because of having read that message on this messageboard. I know that had a person come to me in person and said that, my reply would have been very different. That tells me what I typed wasn't exactly what I should have typed. Guilty as charged. In spirit, I replied honestly but my words were very badly chosen.

> Oh, you also have a "been there, done that" mentality
> towards the suicidally depressed. It seems to me that you have
> forgotten where you've came from.

Actually, that's totally untrue. I've been forever changed by my experience. I do, to some extent, have a "been there, done that" mentality but it is true that I have. I must put my foot down here when I say that there is an enormous difference between wanting to die and actually making peace with death and stepping over the edge, which I have done. I came back, but that doesn't change what was in my mind when I truly believed my eyes would close for the last time. You don't forget things like that.

> That period in my life is
> truly one i will never forget. Suicidal people often believe
> that their suffering will never end, and that life can never
> possibly get better.

I understand. Suicidal thought occurs when your pain exceeds resources available to you for coping with it. The helplessness and desperation make sense. That's why I stress initiative more than I do suicide although I don't condemn suicide - which I consider self-euthanasia.

> If they stick out the hard knocks in life, like i did, they find
> that it does get better eventually, if they work at it.

I know this was true for me (although I didn't work for it) and it was true for you. I just don't want to tell people that things will improve when I know that things very well may not. Life doesn't always improve, you know.

If you've ever read Camus' "A Happy Death", you too may change your mind about life and death. Death shouldn't always be looked upon as the worst imaginable thing. By the way, if you haven't read it, please do. It just may change your life. By the way, read anything and everything by Camus.

> Well, i'd better go. I have to go to work now. A lot of people
> don't have the choice not to, you know.

Ouch again. Well now I feel guilty...

 

[Consumer Monkey]

Re: Your *yawn* simple retort...

Sorry to stick my oar into what seems to be very much a private conversation.
I don't necessarily believe the pain/resources argument when applied to suicide - not as a sweeping generality anyway; perhaps this occurs in some instances ( as a reaction to unusual events perhaps ) - but for me, suicide ( and contemplating suicide ) is to do with the way in which the wonder and oddness of life are undermined by the very smallness and irrelvence of individual existance. Life should be amazing and magical from moment to moment, but what actually happens is that one finds oneself walking down a street carrying a shopping bag full of tinned food thinking "didn't I do this yesterday". Life is unfathomably tedious, pointless and repetitve - and no matter what changes one makes everything remains exactly the same. If there is pain, its the pain of looking at a blank screen. The idea that we should live life to the full ( ie go bungy jumping etc ) assumes that the answer to life's problems lies in how much adrenalin we have flowing round our system, or how many big feelings we can squeeze from our souls - ie because the answer to lifes problems is hard to find in small ordinary things, it must be 'out there' in big, unsubtle things.
I do however think that suicide is the incorrect solution to ones problems in all situations, mainly because it doesn't in itself actually achieve anything ( other than oblivion perhaps ). If we do believe that suicide ends in oblivion, then clearly our lives aren't worth anything at all, which contradicts the facts ( ie something other than oblivion is occuring, therefore oblivion is an impossiblity ).
Also, I dont like the idea of suicide as self-euthanasia because it pre-supposes that someone in a suicidal state is in the right state of mind to make such a decision - usually people commit suicide as a consequence of how they are feeling, not how they are thinking. The moment they wish to commit suicide is exactly at the wrong moment if we are to consider it as self-euthanasia ( 'euthanasia' only occurs after lots of thinking and consultation if the definition of this word is to hold ).

> You know what? I think I agree. I have a very bad tendancy to
> think myself in circles all the time. The saddest part is, many
> of my thoughts are polluted with OTHER people's ideas. Sad if
> you think about it. I've always respected geniuses with apriori
> thought and I am definitely not one of those.

> You may very well be. Funnily enough, I awoke this morning to
> find that I had my foot in my mouth. When I inquired about how
> it got there, I remembered my message from last night.

> Ouch... but warranted. Sort of. I don't feel badly about it
> though. These days I spend my time very well I think. Most of my
> waking hours are spent trying to look like Audrey Hepburn. It's
> the British curse of either loving or hating America.

> Because I'm not. I wouldn't jump to conclusions. In this
> country, the English always seem somewhat pretentious. It's our
> funny way of talking.

> I DO care if I people call me elitist. I never said I didn't.
> That's why I was repeating it. Since I've come to America, I've
> become very self-conscious about this. It's mainly a running
> joke, but it still bothers me a bit because I feel singled out.
> I'd be much more comfortable with people constantly telling me
> that I have nice breasts or a happy smile. "Elitist"
> is for men.

> Do I have to explain this again? It may have been fragmented,
> but the complete answer to your question has been posted on the
> messageboard.

> Yeah, I do have to bow to that one to a degree. I have nothing
> to say in my defense. I think I felt too detached because of
> having read that message on this messageboard. I know that had a
> person come to me in person and said that, my reply would have
> been very different. That tells me what I typed wasn't exactly
> what I should have typed. Guilty as charged. In spirit, I
> replied honestly but my words were very badly chosen.

> Actually, that's totally untrue. I've been forever changed by my
> experience. I do, to some extent, have a "been there, done
> that" mentality but it is true that I have. I must put my
> foot down here when I say that there is an enormous difference
> between wanting to die and actually making peace with death and
> stepping over the edge, which I have done. I came back, but that
> doesn't change what was in my mind when I truly believed my eyes
> would close for the last time. You don't forget things like
> that.

> I understand. Suicidal thought occurs when your pain exceeds
> resources available to you for coping with it. The helplessness
> and desperation make sense. That's why I stress initiative more
> than I do suicide although I don't condemn suicide - which I
> consider self-euthanasia.

> I know this was true for me (although I didn't work for it) and
> it was true for you. I just don't want to tell people that
> things will improve when I know that things very well may not.
> Life doesn't always improve, you know.

> If you've ever read Camus' "A Happy Death", you too
> may change your mind about life and death. Death shouldn't
> always be looked upon as the worst imaginable thing. By the way,
> if you haven't read it, please do. It just may change your life.
> By the way, read anything and everything by Camus.

> Ouch again. Well now I feel guilty...