If Meat is Murder, what is Milk?

[dislocate my shoulder]

Ok so... plants are living but it's okay to eat them as long as you respect them.

What about jellyfish? http://www.marketmanila.com/archives/jellyfish
Or worms? (also edible)

Where do we draw the line, and why?

Is a plant's life much less worthy than a jellyfish, for example?

Jellyfish and worms belong to the kingdom of fauna. I draw the line between animals and plants, because animals are the closest to the physical structure of mine. They have a more or less well developed neural system. Plant cells are different from those of animals (and humans). As I said, it's only the choice of lesser evil. And yes, respect is essential.

 

[lilikoi]

We took the pigs out the forests and put them into factories, changing them irreparably in the process. The extinction is our doing, too. Net loss for the earth. To my way of thinking, the appropriate atonement would be to restore native animal populations to whatever's left of their natural environment. How is that an invalid argument?.

the pigs from the forest are still there in the form of wild boars. whatever is left of natural environment is currently populated with wild animals. what does that have to do with keeping a bunkered factory species of slaves from extinction?

And I still think the presence or absence of a soul matters- if the animals are just reactive creatures without any higher order thought, it's harder to defend their rights. I certainly don't have any problems killing bacteria and virii by spraying down my countertops or cleaning my bathrooms. But as soon as a creature has big soft eyes, it's harder to draw a line between their right to exist and ours.

the soul is a religious concept. what matters should not be "do they have an immortal soul" (do WE have one? I don't believe that at all, for example) but "do they feel pain". and even though we don't have any proof of a soul we certainly have proof that they feel pain. and that they feel more the larger the brain. therefore, we all know there is a difference between what a bacteria feels and what a pig or a cow feels, I hope.

I deeply respect the good intentions of the animal rights movement, but seriously. Humans don't even treat other humans humanely. You expect them to care about animals too?

I don't expect them to care about animals: they do. most people do. that's why these factory farms are hidden and will not let anybody in. if people did not care they wouldn't be afraid to see it. people choose to block it out.
if humans didn't care then there would not be an animal rights movement but it exists - and it is growing.

That's a very tall order. We are only sick animals ourselves, with just enough knowledge to be very dangerous. The best thing God or nature could do for our planet is to eradicate humans. Morrissey and all.

well, I hope not. a world without our amazing brains producing all those crazy thoughts would be quite boring.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

the pigs from the forest are still there in the form of wild boars. whatever is left of natural environment is currently populated with wild animals. what does that have to do with keeping a bunkered factory species of slaves from extinction?

You have wild boars where you live? Really? Show me one. Not around here- and they were here once.

the soul is a religious concept. what matters should not be "do they have an immortal soul" (do WE have one? I don't believe that at all, for example) but "do they feel pain". and even though we don't have any proof of a soul we certainly have proof that they feel pain. and that they feel more the larger the brain. therefore, we all know there is a difference between what a bacteria feels and what a pig or a cow feels, I hope.

I don't think we know that there is a difference between what a bacteria feels and a cow. If a bacteria feels just a rudimentary sense of discomfort, does that make it ok?

I don't expect them to care about animals: they do. most people do. that's why these factory farms are hidden and will not let anybody in. if people did not care they wouldn't be afraid to see it. people choose to block it out.
if humans didn't care then there would not be an animal rights movement but it exists - and it is growing.


well, I hope not. a world without our amazing brains producing all those crazy thoughts would be quite boring.

People know animals are slaughtered. They know. They choose not to care. I think that people are slowly becoming more aware of the waste of animal life that happens in research labs, or for nonessential uses like fur, but for meat? I don't believe most people care very much, as long as they don't have to see it. And even if they did see it, they'd become inured to it. Do you think all slaughterhouse employees or farmers are vegetarians?

I think the animals would be much happier once our stink had cleared off. I don't believe humans are going to improve, we are too vicious and ugly and far too intent on carrying out stupid meaningless invented grudges.

Your final argument is meaningless. If we weren't here, the animals certainly wouldn't be bored. I don't think they find our antics very amusing.

 

[lilikoi]

You have wild boars where you live? Really? Show me one. Not around here- and they were here once.





I don't think we know that there is a difference between what a bacteria feels and a cow. If a bacteria feels just a rudimentary sense of discomfort, does that make it ok?




People know animals are slaughtered. They know. They choose not to care. I think that people are slowly becoming more aware of the waste of animal life that happens in research labs, or for nonessential uses like fur, but for meat? I don't believe most people care very much, as long as they don't have to see it. And even if they did see it, they'd become inured to it. Do you think all slaughterhouse employees or farmers are vegetarians?

I think the animals would be much happier once our stink had cleared off. I don't believe humans are going to improve, we are too vicious and ugly and far too intent on carrying out stupid meaningless invented grudges.

Your final argument is meaningless. If we weren't here, the animals certainly wouldn't be bored. I don't think they find our antics very amusing.

there are indeed tons of wild boars where I live. I see them all the time when I take walks in the wood. the huge males are kinda scary....

biologists definitely know that there is a difference between the feelings of a bacteria and the feelings of a cow. I think you know too. you must know that bacteria don't have brains and nervous systems. you must know that there is a difference between a cell, a few cells, and a complex mammal. a bacteria is not an animal.

I've posted it before in a similar discussion where someone kept saying that humans don't care: there is a study by the european union about animal welfare and the result is that over 70% percent of all europeans want animal welfare to improve and would be willing to pay more for products which are animal friendly. so it is not true that people don't care. there was absolutely NO concern for animal welfare a few hundred years ago and this has changed dramatically. the concern for animals simply is not some whacko movement of a few outsiders.

one only has to walk thru a supermarket and look at the mushrooming of free range, organic, no animal testing products. a few years ago they introduced ONE organic cheese in an austrian supermarket. now there are tons and tons of them from different companies. the organic, free range stuff has moved from the health food stores into the shelves of discounters. that is a consequence of peoples disgust with factory farming, mistreatment of animals etc.

no slaughterhouse workers don't care - but statistically people increasingly care.

therefore: humans aren't that bad. they are the only species with the intellect and altruism to even be able to care.

 

[Bernard]

Milk is not murder, it's just squeezing

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

Milk is not murder, it's just squeezing

And meat is slicing?

Welcome

 

[2-J]

Jellyfish and worms belong to the kingdom of fauna. I draw the line between animals and plants, because animals are the closest to the physical structure of mine. They have a more or less well developed neural system. Plant cells are different from those of animals (and humans). As I said, it's only the choice of lesser evil. And yes, respect is essential.

You are not telling me seriously that a jellyfish has a more developed neural structure than a plant in any relevant way?? Is the type of cells that something has *really* that relevant as to how we should treat it?

What if an alien race landed on earth, the plant-men, who had sophisicated brains, language and culture, but just happened to be made up of plant cells? Would it be alright to kill them for food just because of that? Of course not. Thus proving cell type is not a relevant consideration.

 

[Bernard]

You are not telling me seriously that a jellyfish has a more developed neural structure than a plant in any relevant way?? Is the type of cells that something has *really* that relevant as to how we should treat it?

What if an alien race landed on earth, the plant-men, who had sophisicated brains, language and culture, but just happened to be made up of plant cells? Would it be alright to kill them for food just because of that? Of course not. Thus proving cell type is not a relevant consideration.

Your last sentence just proved that point.

 

[nugz]

I would rather have my tits squeezed than be cut up .

dude, me too.

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

You are not telling me seriously that a jellyfish has a more developed neural structure than a plant in any relevant way?? Is the type of cells that something has *really* that relevant as to how we should treat it?

What if an alien race landed on earth, the plant-men, who had sophisicated brains, language and culture, but just happened to be made up of plant cells? Would it be alright to kill them for food just because of that? Of course not. Thus proving cell type is not a relevant consideration.

As I said, the cell type is something that helps me to define how related organisms are. Jellyfish are actually pretty well developed when compared with the plants. Plants, no matter how their system is built up, in every case are different from that of mine.

I suppose you read too deep into "Day of the triffids" I speak about the difference, because we cannot tell for sure, what level of intelligence the plants might have. If we could tell, that they posses these signs you mentioned, so they would be characterized as humans (arbor sapiens if you wish), not food. The same way as primates and other higher mammals, that show clear signs of intelligence.

 

[2-J]

Jellyfish are actually pretty well developed when compared with the plants. Plants, no matter how their system is built up, in every case are different from that of mine.

Well so is a jellyfish's system! It's pretty different to yours. How is it relevantly closer to you than that of a plant, in a way that allows you to justify eating a plant but not a jellyfish?

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

there are indeed tons of wild boars where I live. I see them all the time when I take walks in the wood. the huge males are kinda scary....

biologists definitely know that there is a difference between the feelings of a bacteria and the feelings of a cow. I think you know too. you must know that bacteria don't have brains and nervous systems. you must know that there is a difference between a cell, a few cells, and a complex mammal. a bacteria is not an animal.

I've posted it before in a similar discussion where someone kept saying that humans don't care: there is a study by the european union about animal welfare and the result is that over 70% percent of all europeans want animal welfare to improve and would be willing to pay more for products which are animal friendly. so it is not true that people don't care. there was absolutely NO concern for animal welfare a few hundred years ago and this has changed dramatically. the concern for animals simply is not some whacko movement of a few outsiders.

one only has to walk thru a supermarket and look at the mushrooming of free range, organic, no animal testing products. a few years ago they introduced ONE organic cheese in an austrian supermarket. now there are tons and tons of them from different companies. the organic, free range stuff has moved from the health food stores into the shelves of discounters. that is a consequence of peoples disgust with factory farming, mistreatment of animals etc.

no slaughterhouse workers don't care - but statistically people increasingly care.

therefore: humans aren't that bad. they are the only species with the intellect and altruism to even be able to care.

Then I think we see part of the problem: I live in America. We've been proven to be heartless and selfish. People I know who buy organic do it because they think it's better for their own health. And the only things in our forests, around here, are deer and raccoons. And the occasional coyote.

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

Well so is a jellyfish's system! It's pretty different to yours. How is it relevantly closer to you than that of a plant, in a way that allows you to justify eating a plant but not a jellyfish?

From here.
This is a plant cell:

The basic plant cell has a similar construction to the animal cell, but does not have centrioles, lysosomes, cilia, or flagella. It does have additional structures, including a rigid cell wall, central vacuole, plasmodesmata, and chloroplasts.

This is an animal cell:

Animal cells are typical of the eukaryotic cell type, enclosed by a plasma membrane and containing a membrane-bound nucleus and organelles.
Mine cells are like this. Although a jellyfish is 90% water, the rest is cells like mine. And they do have nerves and muscles.

 

[lilikoi]

Then I think we see part of the problem: I live in America. We've been proven to be heartless and selfish. People I know who buy organic do it because they think it's better for their own health. And the only things in our forests, around here, are deer and raccoons. And the occasional coyote.

but peta is american and it´s by far the largest animal rights organisation with the most members - so you can´t be that heartless over there. and i have heard of wild boars from my friend in arizona - he calls them javelinas. they seem to be small and cute. our wild boars are big and scary...