The Smiths abortive attempt to continue (1987)

[Dazza]

Evening - hope we're good.

I was musing about this period earlier, rattling through a few possibilities and wondered what some of you thought of the post-Strangeways attempts to essentially replace Johnny Marr and continue under the Smiths name.

My understanding is that it lasted a matter of a few weeks and comprised of them trialing a guitarist called Ivor Perry from the band Easterhouse. It turned out that Perry was a bad fit for working with Morrissey and they quickly abandoned the idea.

Wonder what Johnny thought of that? It's not the Smiths without him, clearly - part of me is probably happy that they called it a day when they did as the Smiths going on into the 1990s would have looked and sounded somewhat dated. I also recognise that Johnny wanted to do other things, explore new musical directions and he was likely to encounter resistance from Moz had he (for instance) suggested adding a dancier element to the group's sound.

Another thing I remember reading about this period was that Morrissey was interested in trying to bring Roddy Frame into the Smiths, which strikes me as something that was never going to happen. Roddy was a writer and a frontman in a band almost as successful as the Smiths (at least commercially) and Aztec would go on to have a few of their most significant hit singles in the few years afterwards.

Worth asking who (if anyone) they could have looked at hypothetically. Would Craig have been interested in coming back? Could Vini Reilly have been tempted? Both ended up working with Morrissey when he went solo and a version of the Smiths (with Craig subbing for Johnny) essentially did a few 'Morrissey solo' records at the end of the 1980s.

It strikes me as a mad idea for them even to attempt to carry on without Johnny, but thoughts appreciated as always. Thanks in advance.

 

[Anonymous]

All indications around this time is that Morrissey thought it was temporary and that Johnny would come back (he was saying as much even when Viva Hate came out), so I can sort of see the logic in touring Strangeways, and possibly recording a few B Sides, to keep the band alive whilst waiting. Ironically, had Craig Gannon stayed on through Strangeways it would have been much easier to continue without Johnny, and I think this would have happened, for good or ill.

 

[Amy]

Mad to even think about continuing without him and not worth considering, in my book. I think it pissed Johnny off enormously that they even tried, and he didn't speak to any of them for years. Kevin Armstrong using that Python quote about a flesh wound was exactly right.

 

[Dazza]

Mad to even think about continuing without him and not worth considering, in my book. I think it pissed Johnny off enormously that they even tried, and he didn't speak to any of them for years. Kevin Armstrong using that Python quote about a flesh wound was exactly right.

Yeah Johnny must have been pretty pissed about the idea they could just replace him, especially with Ivor Perry, who can't have been in anything like the same league. When I hear the stuff about how much Morrissey apparently 'loved' Johnny I remember this episode and colours my judgement of the situation somewhat.

See also - New Order without Peter Hook. Demonstrably not New Order anymore...

 

[Amy]

Yeah Johnny must have been pretty pissed about the idea they could just replace him, especially with Ivor Perry, who can't have been in anything like the same league. When I hear the stuff about how much Morrissey apparently 'loved' Johnny I remember this episode and colours my judgement of the situation somewhat.

See also - New Order without Peter Hook. Demonstrably not New Order anymore...

I think it was a power play that went wrong - for both of them.
Sadly for Moz, singing "Don't take your life, some people have got no pride, I love you more than life" etc a few months later didn't take the sting out. For someone so sensitive who has memorised every slight and slur his whole life, he has some remarkable blind spots.

 

[Dazza]

I think it was a power play that went wrong - for both of them.
Sadly for Moz, singing "Don't take your life, some people have got no pride, I love you more than life" etc a few months later didn't take the sting out. For someone so sensitive who has memorised every slight and slur his whole life, he has some remarkable blind spots.

Hi Amy - hope you're good. I think Morrissey's probably one of those people who's a lot more sensitive about his own feelings than he could ever be about the feelings of others. Just my own personal, but for a 'sensitive' person it can go conveniently walkabouts.

Morrissey and Johnny needed each other, but conversely their relationship had clearly run its course. I suspect that Moz was not becoming any easier to deal with and Johnny needed environment change.

Trying to replace Johnny was a smack in the mouth and an insult for sure - it's not the Smiths without Johnny, clearly. Had one of Andy or Mike left then that's another conversation. How do people feel about lineup changes in bands generally?

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Evening - hope we're good.

I was musing about this period earlier, rattling through a few possibilities and wondered what some of you thought of the post-Strangeways attempts to essentially replace Johnny Marr and continue under the Smiths name.

My understanding is that it lasted a matter of a few weeks and comprised of them trialing a guitarist called Ivor Perry from the band Easterhouse. It turned out that Perry was a bad fit for working with Morrissey and they quickly abandoned the idea.

Wonder what Johnny thought of that? It's not the Smiths without him, clearly - part of me is probably happy that they called it a day when they did as the Smiths going on into the 1990s would have looked and sounded somewhat dated. I also recognise that Johnny wanted to do other things, explore new musical directions and he was likely to encounter resistance from Moz had he (for instance) suggested adding a dancier element to the group's sound.

Another thing I remember reading about this period was that Morrissey was interested in trying to bring Roddy Frame into the Smiths, which strikes me as something that was never going to happen. Roddy was a writer and a frontman in a band almost as successful as the Smiths (at least commercially) and Aztec would go on to have a few of their most significant hit singles in the few years afterwards.

Worth asking who (if anyone) they could have looked at hypothetically. Would Craig have been interested in coming back? Could Vini Reilly have been tempted? Both ended up working with Morrissey when he went solo and a version of the Smiths (with Craig subbing for Johnny) essentially did a few 'Morrissey solo' records at the end of the 1980s.

It strikes me as a mad idea for them even to attempt to carry on without Johnny, but thoughts appreciated as always. Thanks in advance.

As with most relationships, but especially creative relationships, it’s difficult to move on due to so much investment of not only work but with one’s identity with the band or even the name of the band and what it represents.

 

[Mimi Ramone]

Whatever exactly went wrong between the two in the end, I could imagine it as a mix between "powerplay gone wrong" as @Amy put it and pure desperation. I mean according to his own account the Smiths meant everything to Morrissey and he didn't ever want to go solo. And I can imagine that, neither of them knew if the future without the Smiths would work out. The other members clearly didn't want to break up either. So trying for a short period in a desperate attempt to keep it going seems not so surprising. And maybe it was also a little bit of revenge for breaking up the band seemingly out of nowhere. But they gave up shortly after the split anyway. I don't think it contradicts the fact that Johnny meant a lot to Morrissey, I think it illustrates it.

 

[Anonymous]

I think it was a power play that went wrong

I definitely feel this was the case. The whole leaked 'Johnny has left the Smiths' story felt like an attempt by Morrissey to bring Johnny to heel, try and convince him to stop whoring himself around with other artists (as Morrissey saw it) and get back in line. I think he was as shocked as anyone when Johnny called his bluff and walked.

Having poured so much of himself into The Smiths, I can fully understand Morrissey struggling to accept that it was really over, and wanting to do anything at that point to try and keep it going. I would love to hear any recordings from that ill-fated Ivor Perry session, as it must have been the point that it finally sank in that it was hopeless to continue with the band. I think he mentions in 'Autobiography' that Nick Kent wrote and asked to be auditioned as a replacement guitarist as well. It must have been a highly confusing and traumatic time.

Have I got my timeline wrong - or did Mike Joyce actually quit what remained of The Smiths at some point - maybe after the Ivor Perry session? So that would have just left Moz and Andy trying to go forward under The Smiths name - totally hopeless at that point, and he must have realised the game was up.

 

[Amy]

Whatever exactly went wrong between the two in the end, I could imagine it as a mix between "powerplay gone wrong" as @Amy put it and pure desperation. I mean according to his own account the Smiths meant everything to Morrissey and he didn't ever want to go solo. And I can imagine that, neither of them knew if the future without the Smiths would work out. The other members clearly didn't want to break up either. So trying for a short period in a desperate attempt to keep it going seems not so surprising. And maybe it was also a little bit of revenge for breaking up the band seemingly out of nowhere. But they gave up shortly after the split anyway. I don't think it contradicts the fact that Johnny meant a lot to Morrissey, I think it illustrates it.

When I say power play, I mean something like this.
Johnny gets fed up of various issues and does a disappearing act - not really sure of the 'big plan', just wanting to ruffle the others a bit because they're not taking him seriously. Gives them the cold shoulder, makes Moz sweat a bit and contemplate his sins. He did not intend to leave permanently until the NME situation provoked him (so he says).
In the interval, Moz gets tired of the cold shoulder and paranoid about JM's intentions and decides to flex his own muscles - 'right, we're done with waiting, have this!' - probably hoping to provoke Johnny to come to his senses.
End result - both hurt each other pointlessly and stupidly, due to nothing more than ego, paranoia and an inability to talk it out like adults. And the worst of it is that they've never grown up, they're just the same now!

 

[MozIsGod]

Even if it somehow worked with a new guitarist, Johnny was very adamant about it not being called The Smiths. He wasn't going to let them continue under that name without him.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Even if it somehow worked with a new guitarist, Johnny was very adamant about it not being called The Smiths. He wasn't going to let them continue under that name without him.

I assume he had the legal right to(?) and it’s understandable why he would. But it’s a bit of a sour grapes move. Though, Morrissey most likely would have done the same.

Anyway, the whole breakup’s like children throwing tantrums in order to get their own way. Though, it’s no surprise, Marr needed to leave.

 

[Young And Alive]

Even if it somehow worked with a new guitarist, Johnny was very adamant about it not being called The Smiths. He wasn't going to let them continue under that name without him.

I'm pretty sure the original idea for the Wolverhampton farewell gig was that Johnny was to be invited, but when he declined to take part he also forbade Morrissey to use the name The Smiths for it. Which is why it ended up being billed as a Morrissey gig instead.

 

[Flibberty]

I'm pretty sure the original idea for the Wolverhampton farewell gig was that Johnny was to be invited, but when he declined to take part he also forbade Morrissey to use the name The Smiths for it. Which is why it ended up being billed as a Morrissey gig instead.

Yeah, Johnny has said that Morrissey wanted to do a farewell gig at the Royal Albert Hall in the autumn of 1987.

 

[Young And Alive]

The idea of The Smiths continuing without one of the two founding members is 'really laughable', to borrow a phrase.

It's like billing it as Morecambe and Wise, except Eric has walked out and Ernie has brought someone else in to replace him. But he still wants to call it Morecambe and Wise.

Everyone knew The Smiths as lyricist Morrissey and musician Johnny Marr. Take one away and it is no longer The Smiths.

Auditioning replacements for Johnny was just Morrissey stubbornly trying to solider on, putting a brave face on it.

And for all his protestations in subsequent years that he never wanted The Smiths to end and never chose to be a solo artist, I think going solo was the making of Morrissey. He liked to call the shots in The Smiths over artisitic direction and personnel, even when it was in conflict with what Johnny wanted, which is ultimately what killed the band. But as a solo artist, Morrissey was now able to exert complete control over his career and anyone accepting an invitation to work with him would, naturally, have to accept this power dynamic.

I know that Morrissey misses Johnny's friendship, but I don't doubt that he has been more comfortable as a solo artist than he ever was in The Smiths.

 

[Young And Alive]

Yeah, Johnny has said that Morrissey wanted to do a farewell gig at the Royal Albert Hall in the autumn of 1987.

I didn't know that. I thought the farewell gig Johnny was invited to was always Wolverhampton in 1988.

I think Morrissey did the right thing in trying to include him, but it was never likely to succeed. The band broke up because the working relationship broke down and they were no longer on speaking terms. It would have been rather odd if they'd decided to share a stage again for one night only, setting aside the fact that at that point they hated each other's guts.

That said, Mike Joyce was there, despite the fact that he had already begun legal proceedings against Morrissey (and Johnny) at that point. I always found that very peculiar, given how strongly Morrissey holds grudges.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

this thread makes me sad.

 

[Young And Alive]

this thread makes me sad.

I always find the 1987/Strangeways period melancholic to look back upon.

To me, it's as if that not only did The Smiths die, but so too did the people they once were. Morrissey and Johnny were these young, idealistic songwriters who were a shining light in 80s pop music. They gave so much hope to so many people.

But then it ended and the friendship died. Morrissey and Johnny had become embittered by the trauma of the band's break up and nothing would be the same, or as good, ever again.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

I always find the 1987/Strangeways period melancholic to look back upon.

To me, it's as if that not only did The Smiths die, but so too did the people they once were. Morrissey and Johnny were these young, idealistic songwriters who were a shining light in 80s pop music. They gave so much hope to so many people.

But then it ended and the friendship died. Morrissey and Johnny had become embittered by the trauma of the band's break up and nothing would be the same, or as good, ever again.

Yeah. I think M had a glorious run though. And Marr? well, he did what he could do without the presence of a Morrissey to inspire him.

 

[Young And Alive]

Yeah. I think M had a glorious run though. And Marr? well, he did what he could do without the presence of a Morrissey to inspire him.

Even if Morrissey's solo output isn't as good as The Smiths (and that's simply a matter of opinion anyway), it's not like Morrissey was the one who walked out on The Smiths only to embark on a substandard solo career. The Smiths was taken away from him.

And anyway, people are always harsher on an artist's later career than they are on the period or group in which they first made their name. Few would argue that McCartney's solo work is on a par with The Beatles. The Stones best work is widely considered to be from fifty years ago. With U2 it's the 80s and early 90s.

People get nostalgic about an artist's youth and their breakthrough albums and songs, and forever view it through rose tinted glasses. The stuff they wrote later on never gets a look in.

For me, Everyday Is Like Sunday is a better song than Bigmouth. The More You Ignore Me is better than Girlfriend in Coma. First of the Gang to Die is better than Sheila Take a Bow.